Love and marriage, love and marriage

[Kintamayama 44,354]

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/...=rss_topstories

[ilovesumo 12]

Thanks Kinta.

This is so japanese....clubbing.........

the time they spend there enjoying a beer...isn't it time they should spend at home? (On the banzuke...)

[Gusoyama 95]

Are they serious? No wonder so many Japanese women are marrying gaijin.

[ilovesumo 12]

they ARE serious...

living there for a while, I found out that each strange thing I've ever heard about Japan IS true... (On the banzuke...)

[Shomishuu 0]

Thanks Kinta.

This is so japanese....clubbing.........

the time they spend there enjoying a beer...isn't it time they should spend at home? (On the banzuke...)

Watching the clubbing reminds me of a TV documentary I saw about 20 years ago...the American actress Jane Seymour was doing a thing about Japan. She was with a similar group - all salarymen I think - doing the normal businessman's obligation thing. She asked them lots of questions about their customs, their personal lives, etc. The one question I remember was, "What is your dream?" They guys looked at each other and didn't have an answer. Her take was that they understood the words and the question, but that the concept of having a personal dream was something they couldn't relate to because they were living their dream as they spoke and the idea that life held yet more promise was alien to them.

I wonder how many people agree with her take on it, and also how these guys in the video would answer the same question today.

[kaiguma 0]

Thanks Kinta.

This is so japanese....clubbing.........

the time they spend there enjoying a beer...isn't it time they should spend at home? (On the banzuke...)

Watching the clubbing reminds me of a TV documentary I saw about 20 years ago...the American actress Jane Seymour was doing a thing about Japan. She was with a similar group - all salarymen I think - doing the normal businessman's obligation thing. She asked them lots of questions about their customs, their personal lives, etc. The one question I remember was, "What is your dream?" They guys looked at each other and didn't have an answer. Her take was that they understood the words and the question, but that the concept of having a personal dream was something they couldn't relate to because they were living their dream as they spoke and the idea that life held yet more promise was alien to them.

I wonder how many people agree with her take on it, and also how these guys in the video would answer the same question today.

This reminds me how brilliant was Kubrick's finale Eyes Wide Shut.

[Sasanishiki 57]

"Rank 3: No extramarital affairs, or at least keep it a secret from her"

(Sign of approval...) (Second prize...) Oh good grief... ;-) (Holiday feeling...)

[Sasanishiki 57]

Ok, but this is a group that wants to be better husbands. What I took the phrase to mean is that if an affair is going on (or you will have one in the future) then you should keep it secret. This is hardly about being a better husband. It should be more along the lines of "No extramarital affairs, and stop the ones you are having". The confession of one currently or in the past is not the point, it is about the conduct of the man trying to be a better husband. I would think that being a better husband would involve acting in a better way toward the wife, ergo the ceasing or avoidance of affairs.

[ilovesumo 12]

I just do not like that...

Let them think what they want, but it IS cheating.

Yesterday I did an interview, online seminar of my university together with a japanese one.

The girl told me, that she has a boyfriend now, but with 30, the perfect age to get married, she will find one with money.

???

What about love? I won't find that in Japan...

[ilovesumo 12]

I only say, what I want from a relationship is not the japanese way. No need to bring up the cultural differences.

[ilovesumo 12]

Guess not.

[Fay 1,677]

I only say, what I want from a relationship is not the japanese way. No need to bring up the cultural differences.

Well it's not what you "only said". You implied that their way of think was wrong.

You can as well accept different manners and customs as think that they are wrong for yourself, I don't see a problem here.

[philafuji 1]

Quite some time ago I saw a tv show where it was brought out that wifes in Japan know there husbands have a relationship with a mistress.

I have no way of knowing if that is true or not. The wifes simply accepted it as a way of life in the cultrue of Japan.

I always wondered about that.

Could some one tell me if this is true or not.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Hananotaka 8]

On another forum last year, someone asked me about infidelity in Japan. It might be of some interest here so I'll reproduce the original question and my response. I'd be interested in any additional thoughts, modifications or corrections other ex-pats and native Japanese might have...

The original question:

Ben Mezrich (author of bringing down the house and ugly americans, among other books) was on Jim Rome the other day. For “Ugly Americans” he spent a fair amount of time in Japan, and while discussing the book, he made an interesting comment.

He was talking about the prevalance of the sex trade in Japan, and that sex was considered a bodily function there, and infidelity via frequenting prostitutes was common and accepted. Mezrich goes on to say that the acceptance of male infidelity is so ubiquitous that wives would pack condoms for their husbands when the husbands go on on trips.

My first question would be is that an accurate representation of how sex is viewed in Japan? If so, does it go both ways (which I highly doubt). i.e. can women have multiple partners with no issue from their husband? If the latter isn’t true, doesn’t that negate Mezrich’s statement of how sex is “viewed” in Japan?

My response:

Mezrich is accurate in the detail, but overgeneralizes, I think. One needs only look at the Japanese movie Shall We Dance?, wherein the main character’s wife worries he’s being unfaithful, to see that infidelity hasn’t quite reached “common and accepted”.

Sex in Japan is indeed removed from feelings of immorality and guilt, unlike in the U.S. That doesn’t mean its divorced from standards of propriety. I hesitate to equate sex with “bodily function” here; I think would simply say that sex has an accepted social function. One of the most important things to understand with Japanese culture is the idea of social roles, and the importance of fulfilling them, and not going beyond them.

Let us look, for example, at the infamous Ginza hostesses. In Japan there is a sharp delineation between “the water trade” (mizu shoubai, hostesses) and “the manner trade” (fuuzoku, sex workers). Hostesses are not prostitutes. They bring in huge amounts of money, hobnob with captains of industry and the most powerful politicians (occassionally becoming mistresses if they are so inclined). In their own particular world, the top hostesses and mama-sans command a great deal of respect. And yet, once one leaves the water trade, that history is generally suppressed, if possible. No guy wants people to know his wife was a former hostess. As long as hostesses stay in their social role, there’s no problem.

Fuuzoku workers are below hostesses on the social scale, but again, if they stay in their social circle there’s no problem. Police hit brothels when there are questions of impropriety: underage workers, for example. Otherwise business can operate on a fairly open basis. I would say going to one of these businesses has a level of acceptance higher than the States, but still below, full, open acceptance.

So, are husbands and boyfriends allowed to enjoy brothels and massage parlors simply to exercise a necessarily bodily function? Hell no! Not in mainstream Japanese life, at any rate. But, there’s always a built facade and a separate reality in Japan. As long as people maintain their proper social roles, facades can be maintained for some time. So a husband who maintains his husbandly duties (supporting wife and kids), particularly later in married life, may be allowed a mistress, or to go to brothels and what not, provided he keeps it properly secret. One thing non-Japanese have to get used to in Japan is that group harmony is prioritized ahead of truth. A lie that protects group harmony is always better than a truth that breaks it. The Western (perhaps simply the American?) idea of truth for truth’s own sake is alien to Japan. There’s a completely acceptable Japanese saying: ”Uso mo houben”. Roughly translated, “Lies are also a necessary means.” So, girlfriends may steadfastly ignore signs of their boyfriend’s unfaithfulness (and vice versa). Wives may suspect, or even know, that their husband is unfaithful, but if the family is still function well, and if he shows he’s still invested in it, they may turn a blind eye. And they may then partake themselves if the opportunity presents itself.

Another reason for this is that there is no no-fault divorce in Japan. If one person falls out of love they can’t just get a divorce. And divorce still has a stigma about it. Infidelity is grounds for divorce, but many couples may choose to just gut it out and try to make the marriage work rather than go through the trouble of splitting up, especially when there are kids. Joint custody is not the norm. In fact, it is not unusual in a case of divorce for one parent to be totally cut off from the children.

Now, in regards to sexual activity, on the whole it’s more acceptable for men to have multiple partners than for women, not surprisingly. And while wives certainly have their options for infidelity (I’ve been pursued by enough married women, myself), there is no sex industry catering to women. There are host bars that rich women can go to, but no massage parlors, “health parlors”, or “Soapland” for women.

So, basically, properly conducted and secret infidelity has a certain level of acceptance for both men and women (how common it is is anybody’s guess, since it’s properly conducted and secret). The companionship and sex trade has its particular role in society, just under the mainstream. And regarding sex the Japanese are not as uptight as we are. Breasts can appear on primetime TV.

Edited December 30, 2007 by Hananotaka

[Mark Buckton 1]

I just do not like that...

Let them think what they want, but it IS cheating.

Many would agree with you but each person draws his / her own line(s). As a German, presumably of Christian background (even if not active and/or practicing - of the morals associated with such) you would then, in theory, have to criticize every married individual in your city / town / family for having ever 'looked' at another person (of the opposite sex) with 'thoughts' of ........... That concept of 'relative' failing in fidelity IS in your background - IS in your culture.

Nishi mentioned not getting into the relative but given the 'absolute' level of the word 'IS' that you opt for and stress in capitals - maybe 'relative' is something you should consider.

I don't condone infidelity here or anywhere and probably base that on my own European / Christian background - but my understanding of that infidelity may be different to others.

Last year (almost), I was fortunate enough to work in a certain entertainment field in Japan. Household names, very respected and very respectful of traditions are the members of this field but as part and parcel, I was told several times of the 'need' (unquestioned) to have extra-marital relationships and the industry wide (spouses included) blind eye turned as it 'helps their performance'

I only say, what I want from a relationship is not the japanese way. No need to bring up the cultural differences

.

you did exactly that by posting the underlined part of the quote above. Thus is 'cake and eating it Verena.

there is no sex industry catering to women. There are host bars that rich women can go to, but no massage parlors,

[Cassia 0]

Quote: "I was told several times of the 'need' (unquestioned) to have extra-marital relationships and the industry wide (spouses included) blind eye turned as it 'helps their performance.'"

Wow, that's a good one! Only a man would ever use such a bizarre justification for an affair - 'I need to have an affair because it helps my performance'. What rubbish! Maybe they should have said, 'I'm famous so lots of women throw themsleves at me and it would be a shame to pass up the opportunites that offers.' Oh, but that would be an ugly truth, wouldn't it?

Another thing is that yes, the divorce rate is low and maybe spouses prefer to turn a blind eye to preserve the family unit, and then there's the social shame of divorce to consider, but also, a lot of women are very unhappy but they don't work or don't make enough money to enable them to get a divorce, and their only option if they do get divorced is to go back to their parents, if they'll have her plus maybe her children. And her mother may very well be the one telling the wife to stay with her husband because the family unit is the most important thing and the wife is being 'selfish' to put her individual disappointments above that unit.

I've heard this from two sides: a wife staying with her cheating husband and a woman having an affair with a married man - not the same relationship, I hasten to add! The wife was depressed and unhappy, although she could turn on her social happy face frighteningly quickly. Her mother had said she couldn't go home and that she should get over her unhappiness by having an affair herself! So she's trapped and all she can do is have an affair of her own.

Another story came from a girlfriend who thought it was funny that I was concerned about the wife of her boyfriend. She actually laughed when I asked what would happen to the children if the wife divorced him. 'Don't be silly! She can't divorce him! She's got no money - where would she go?'

On the other hand, there are a lot of very lonely married men in Japan. They're at the office most of the time and when they come home, their wives and children have a relationship and routine that make them feel ignored and like an outsider in their own family. Again, this is from personal friends, not just observation, and is only their lives, not necessarily everyone's experience. But once their wives have children, their lives revolve around them and their husband just brings in the money. These men told me that they're having affairs, not necessarily only for sex, but to be able to talk to someone and get affection.

So, it seems that while a lot of people, sorry, women, might be willing to turn a blind eye, it's not necessarily because they're perfectly happy with their husband cheating because it's a normal Japanese cultural thing, but that they don't have much of a choice. On the other hand, that family unit, so important socially, might not give some men, and women, the personal relationship they need. Some marriages here, especially between those at or over that magic age of 30, are not necessarily arranged, but there's definitely a lot of frantic backstage engineering going on and both men and women might marry people that they 'get on with' and could create a family with, as opposed to being madly in love with. That's not just a Japanese thing obviously, and it's not necessarily a bad thing, but there are a bunch of basically platonic marriages here, which might also explain some of the acceptance of affairs.

Oh, I rambled on more than I intended - too much time on my hands in the holiday season, but as a single Western woman living in Japanese society, it's a pretty interesting subject. But yep, Verena, I'm with you - I never expect to find anyone in this country. Too many cultural differences, especially for women.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

Just out of curiosity, if I were borne a Japanese and lived as I do, unmarried and closing on 40, how big a social stigma would I have to carry? What if I were a woman?

[ilovesumo 12]

Point 1- women being housewife- I know that's the way it is in Japan, the girls wanna reach that- not too many chances for females to get a good job cause it's a man's world. The few females in economy for example do seldom marry and end up as so called "make inu" looser dog. They have money...they have an own life-how can they be called looser?

Point 2-lonesome husband just bringing money

If there would be love, such a non-conversation-life-situation could not happen. Could it?

most marriages are still arranged...

Girls wanna marry a gold spilling donkey...

I'd rather be poor but loved.

Thank you Cassia. Great post. I just had the same view in Japan...

If ever a relationship with a japanese men, he would have to accept my own rules. Chance is about 0...

I know only one foreign female-japanese male-relationship, and in this relationship she is bringing the money and he is happy to have her, truly loving him, one who is only a freeter. So it is possible that a japanese man opens his eyes and understands that there is an other way, there is a chance to be happy with love.

@ Mark

It's not my (non) christian background, it's simply the relationship of my parents I see as ideal.

Edit: Define cheating...

Edited December 31, 2007 by ilovesumo

[Hananotaka 8]

Point 2-lonesome husband just bringing money

If there would be love, such a non-conversation-life-situation could not happen. Could it?

Yes, it could, and yes, it does. All the time. In almost all marriages, except for a very, very unique few, the passion that was initially there fizzles out. People still love each other, there's still a bond there, but they begin taking each other for granted. This is where marriages succeed or fail. Good marriages can get over this hump, to a special kind of love that can only be experienced by two people who've spent most of their lives together. But this kind of love is very different from the kind of love initially in the marriage, and this love exists because there was a rough patch that was worked through.

most marriages are still arranged...

No marriages are arranged in Japan. Sure, some are still done by o-miai, but that's not an arranged marriage, that's an arranged meeting. Whether the two get married is entirely up to how the participants feel about each other. Most marriages in Japan these days are renai-kekkon. Which is why the divorce rate is rising.

Just out of curiosity, if I were borne a Japanese and lived as I do, unmarried and closing on 40, how big a social stigma would I have to carry? What if I were a woman?

As a man? None at all. Oh, your boss or your mother may suggest you get married when you're in your late-20s/early-30s, with the idea that a man who's married has more stability. But that's about it. Closing in on 40, I imagine you'd be considered pretty stable already, unless you were a well known playboy.

As a woman? I don't think you'd face much stigma at this point. In you're late 20s the pressure from your parents to marry would probably be pretty intense, but once you were in your 30s even your parents would probably give up on you and assume that this is the way your life will be.

One reason that Japan is facing an aging crisis is because there's not much, if any, stigma carried by men and women for marrying late, or not at all.

[Mark Buckton 1]

Just out of curiosity, if I were borne a Japanese and lived as I do, unmarried and closing on 40, how big a social stigma would I have to carry?

think you'd be finnished (Neener, neener...)

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

In fact I'm not finished. DeathClock.com estimated I would die on December 31st, but I keep on living on borrowed time.

[Fay 1,677]

In fact I'm not finished. DeathClock.com estimated I would die on December 31st, but I keep on living on borrowed time.

Interesting link, I still have some basho (Neener, neener...)

Happy birthday and some more borrowed time!

[Koneko 0]

I still have nearly twenty years left. Who wants to become 90 anyway?

Interesting discussion this. A little bit OT perhaps, but as an unmarried mother I'm curious - how are children born outside of marriage regarded? I understand they have few rights when it comes to inheritance etc...or am I wrong?

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

What a remarkable little gadget, this DeathClock.com: the difference between being pessimistic or optimistic amounts to more than 40 years! (I am not worthy...)

Aren't numbers great...

[Fay 1,677]

What a remarkable little gadget, this DeathClock.com: the difference between being pessimistic or optimistic amounts to more than 40 years! (Sigh...)

Aren't numbers great...

And I already wondered why I should grow so old.

They should include a special air crash function for me (I am not worthy...)