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Kintamayama

Asa in hot water again?

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Meanwhile, Mr. Yoshinobu Shimamura, former minister of agriculture and fisheries, paid a visit to the yokozuna.... the yokozuna thanked him and said, "I'm sorry to cause you so much trouble." .....

..... Mr. Shimamura mentioned the time Ryu handed part of his kensho envelopes to the retiring tate-gyoji, Kimura Shonosuke. "There aren't many yokozuna like that," he said. "That was [the epitome of] Japanese culture. Do they have to keep confining him like this? If a [fine] young man gets damaged [because of this], it would bring up the question of humanity. Even the two basho suspension is pretty rough. How do you expect a person to gambarize in keiko without any goal. Even if he is from a foreign country, he is still a [human being]. Does our national sport still possess such backward thinking?".....

Whatever one may think of the whole matter, it is nice to hear such human words from a japanese VIP. Is it a paradox that, as far as I have read, those who personally know Asashoryu seem to appreciate him and none of those who do not like him knows him personally ?

In this situation I expect that a "normal" rikishi accepts the punishment und that he behaves accordingly (like Toki, Roho, Kyokutenho, etc.).

But from a Yokozuna there can be expected more accordingly to his rank.

Yokozuna is not only a name like world champion or leader of world ranking, it's a honorary title which will be given.

That not only needs extraordinary performances (results), but also appropriate behavior, repect and dignity.

If a Yokozuna can't cope with such a punishment and breaks down like Asashoryu apparently does, he is not worthy of that rank.

A Yokozuna should stand above all things and behave respectively.

Either he accepts such a punishment and behave like what is expected or he has to bear the cosequences if he can't deal with it.

With such a reaction he might have lost his face even for many Japanese and has trampled the rank of a Yokozuna under foot another time.

Roho's punishment was very light (3 bouts). Kyokutenho perfectly knows he did something that was prohibited and anyway he has very good reasons not to say anything in any case. More or less the same was true for Toki. But two basho's out and confinement for four months ?

I thought that in the worst case Asashoryu made a mistake thinking he was doing something good and now, even if he understands what the Kyokai thought, he is shocked by the amount of the punishment. Now I discover that he was also never worth the rank of Yokozuna. I would propose to remove him from the title (it would be the first time, but there have been other first times with him...), and to remove his last 19 wins (as a Yokozuna) from his record. Let us leave him the two wins as a Ozeki just to show that we are not really bad to him....

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Whatever one may think of the whole matter, it is nice to hear such human words from a japanese VIP. Is it a paradox that, as far as I have read, those who personally know Asashoryu seem to appreciate him and none of those who do not like him knows him personally ?

Do you honestly think this Japanese VIP person is a "good friend of Shoryu's" and "knows him well"? One often hears how public figures say "He is a good friend of mine" and then in reality meet once a year and talk couple of times on the phone. It always irritates me when these "He is a good friend" lines are thrown around lightly. Usually those "good friends" no shit about each other's life and personality really. Especially these "Pope is my good friend" comments make me want to puke flowers.

Edited by Kaikitsune Makoto

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One often hears how public figures say "He is a good friend of mine" and then in reality meet once a year and talk couple of times on the phone. It always irritates me when these "He is a good friend" lines are thrown around lightly. Usually those "good friends" no shit about each other's life and personality really. Especially these "Pope is my good friend" comments make me want to puke flowers.

You cannot imagine how much I share this concept with you; I agree more than fully; but may I respectfully add that :

Do you honestly think this Japanese VIP person is a "good friend of Shoryu's" and "knows him well"?

I did not write that, nor did I imply it. I wrote a different thing: let me quote myself (am I becoming egotistic ? like Asashoryu ? ):

those who personally know Asashoryu seem to appreciate him and none of those who do not like him knows him personally ?

Let me explain what it means: all the times I happened to read words by a person who HAS MET Asashoryu, I always read comments like mr. Shimamura's one: "nice person, polite, respectful, and so on". Among all those that say something like "he is unfair, egotistic, bully, and so on", (that might absolutely be the truth, of course) , nobody says: I MET him and that is the way he is. Maybe he looks different from how he is ? May be. But of course I would tend to believe people who HAVE MET him more than people who have NOT. Where is my mistake ?

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Let me explain what it means: all the times I happened to read words by a person who HAS MET Asashoryu, I always read comments like mr. Shimamura's one: "nice person, polite, respectful, and so on". Among all those that say something like "he is unfair, egotistic, bully, and so on", (that might absolutely be the truth, of course) , nobody says: I MET him and that is the way he is. Maybe he looks different from how he is ? May be. But of course I would tend to believe people who HAVE MET him more than people who have NOT. Where is my mistake ?

I guess people who met him on the dohyo or during keiko wouldn't think of him as particularly polite, respectful, and so on. (Whistling...)

While this remark sounds like I am making fun, there is some truth to it. Asashoryu misbehaves on the job, not necessarily in his private life.

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[

I did not write that, nor did I imply it. I wrote a different thing: let me quote myself (am I becoming egotistic ? like Asashoryu ? ):

I know. I missquoted you like Tabloid. Si.

Let me explain what it means: all the times I happened to read words by a person who HAS MET Asashoryu, I always read comments like mr. Shimamura's one: "nice person, polite, respectful, and so on". Among all those that say something like "he is unfair, egotistic, bully, and so on", (that might absolutely be the truth, of course) , nobody says: I MET him and that is the way he is. Maybe he looks different from how he is ? May be. But of course I would tend to believe people who HAVE MET him more than people who have NOT. Where is my mistake ?

There is no mistake but the problem is that of course Shoryu treats people with respect when they come to see him in admiration and so. If he would actually be unfair, egoistic and bully in front of such people, I dare not to think how he would be "behind the scenes". Besides nobody would make negative comments without a good reason. I know personally few people who are genuine manipulators and pissheads but who can put on a good show in public or in situations in matters to them. It is not really essential how someone is when they are in a good mood and things go their way but what matters is how they are when things don't go their way and they are not in a good mood. Many wife/child beaters can be real nice and wonderful people in good times only to show their true malignancy during less good times.

Give a person a bit rebellious dog to take care of when he is in a bad mood. The way he treats the dog tells a lot about how he is as a human. Tomorrow someone should deliver Asa more soup and a little snappy hau hau hau hau! dog to harrass him and we shall see!

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There is no mistake but the problem is that of course Shoryu treats people with respect when they come to see him in admiration and so. If he would actually be unfair, egoistic and bully in front of such people, I dare not to think how he would be "behind the scenes".

Exactly. It's awfully easy to be magnanimous to people who are essentially kissing your feet.

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Exactly. It's awfully easy to be magnanimous to people who are essentially kissing your feet.

General concept that I share in general terms.

There is no mistake but the problem is that of course Shoryu treats people with respect when they come to see him in admiration and so.

Can you give the name of somebody who met him and found him unfair, impolite, rude without reason ? Otherwise you will have to admit that yours are speculations. It would be so easy to say: I don't like him. It is your undisputable right for any reason. But how can you define so clearly a person's character without ever having met him ?

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Shuukan Bunshi is headlining with Asashoryu stories for its upcoming magazine:

http://www.bunshun.co.jp/mag/shukanbunshun/

Some of the titles:

"Asashoryu beat his wife Tamil!"

"The real reason for blowing of the jungyo tour was 'Mongolian president business'"

"The sumo world's grudge: 'If only he hadn't met up with Nakata (the soccer player who got him into the charity match)"

To be taken with a grain of salt supplied by Kitazakura, of course.

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Exactly. It's awfully easy to be magnanimous to people who are essentially kissing your feet.

General concept that I share in general terms.

There is no mistake but the problem is that of course Shoryu treats people with respect when they come to see him in admiration and so.

Can you give the name of somebody who met him and found him unfair, impolite, rude without reason ? Otherwise you will have to admit that yours are speculations. It would be so easy to say: I don't like him. It is your undisputable right for any reason. But how can you define so clearly a person's character without ever having met him ?

As someone who gets paid to sometimes hang around in the hanamichi and shitakubeya at tournaments, I've seen Asa up close plenty, although never spoken to him one-on-one - just in the media scrum. (I know there are people on this forum who have and will have different experiences). When Asa is "at work" he gives off the strongest aura of any wrestler I have come across (apart from Tokitenku... but that is another story)

The next time you watch a tournament (with Asa in attendance), see how reporters flatten themselves against the wall when Asa walks down a corridor (if there is a next time (Whistling...))... there is a reason for that. That kind of aura is beyond likeable or unlikeable - it is just a mixture of power and controlled aggression, which many great yokozuna have projected at the height of their careers.

Right now, there is no one else like that. Compared to Hakuho or any of the top rikishi, Asa is unapproachable (this also is because his tsukebito do a very good job of maintaining a space between him and the rest of the world.)

You never see him joking with other wrestlers, you never see him do anything other than act the way a yokozuna should. From what I heard, Takanohana was the same in his prime - the top dog position gives them the ability to control their surroundings unlike any other wrestler.

So I don't really know if "impolite, rude without reason" and so on are really the right words... but there is definitely nothing friendly about "yokozuna Asashoryu." Many people would say there shouldn't be - he is a paid martial artist, after all.

If you are an Asa fan, one of the potential problems with this media strategy of exposing his weaknesses is that this aura will be damaged, and with it, his power in the ring.

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I found this article which was written in 2003. Seems to have come true.

http://www.japantoday.com/news/jp/e/tools/...ukan&id=190

Should Asashoryu get the boot?

With the Autumn Grand Sumo Tournament about to get under way from Sept 7, all eyes will be on controversial Mongolian yokozuna (grand champion) Asashoryu, who in the July tournament in Nagoya suffered the unprecedented ignominy of being disqualified in a bout for pulling his opponent's hair, among other transgressions.

In an interview in Shukan Post (Sept 5), Kazuo Ichiriki, former chairman (from March 1999 to January 2001) of the Yokozuna Deliberation Council, the organization entrusted with recommending promotions of wrestlers to sumo's highest rank, discusses concerns over Asashoryu, foreigners in the sport and other factors contributing to sumo's current malaise.

Along with the issue of foreigners in sumo, what do you make of the controversy Asashoryu has stirred over his allegedly poor conduct?

It's not that foreigners lack "hinkaku" (a term variously defined as decorum, composure, dignity, etc.) per se

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James H

....When Asa is "at work" he gives off the strongest aura of any wrestler I have come across....

.... which many great yokozuna have projected at the height of their careers....

.... you never see him do anything other than act the way a yokozuna should. From what I heard, Takanohana was the same in his prime - the top dog position gives them the ability to control their surroundings unlike any other wrestler....

... but there is definitely nothing friendly about "yokozuna Asashoryu." Many people would say there shouldn't be - he is a paid martial artist, after all......

In my opinion, the above remarks are not bad. In a sense they contradict those who say he is not a yokozuna ...

You never see him joking with other wrestlers]

That sounds strange: I read some reports about some tours (USA, Chinese wall) where he was described as talking and joking all the time with Chiyotaikai and others ( I do not remember well the point) when they were "off work".

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I read many people's posts and e-mails saying that Asashoryu should retire. I understand that there are good reasons to say that (and good reasons to say the opposite, to tell the truth...). But, supposing that he is able and willing to come back, isn't there a sort of "unwritten rule" in sumo that "after paying for the fault, the fault is forgotten" ? See for instance what has been written and said in Roho's case. I am not thinking of course about those people who have always disliked Asashoryu; I am speaking about those that, like me, would like to see him and his sumo again.

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As Mongolian I am trying to be as neutral as I can to the whole shebang(?). But I don't really understand the all negativity towards Asa. The Japanese public or wanna be japanese, seems to have their own view but the man really has tried everything to please the Japanese public and Kyokai. Do you remember when he was having his hand on his heart when the Japanese anthem was played. There were articles in Mongolian press about harassing Mongolian wrestlers by criminals. One of them was about some people approaching Asa to tell him not to win more then 20 yuoshos. BS as some might say, I am more and more starting to believe to the reports, especially what after Shoes ordeal turned out. If you dont know someone personally , how can you make a judgment about some one. Iwa-san and Fuji-san thank you very much for showing what the fairness and good sport means. For the rest open your eyes and start enjoy sumo as it is. No smartA... replyes needed.

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In my opinion, the above remarks are not bad. In a sense they contradict those who say he is not a yokozuna ...

I'm glad you don't think they are bad. They of course were not a criticism. You are right - his behavior in those situations is very yokozuna-like.

That sounds strange: I read some reports about some tours (USA, Chinese wall) where he was described as talking and joking all the time with Chiyotaikai and others ( I do not remember well the point) when they were "off work".

I was talking about his behavior at grand sumo tournaments - elsewhere, as you say, he is happy to joke around with other wrestlers. Last year's jungyo of Hokkaido and Tohoku was a great platform for Asashoryu. He had the crowd in the palm of his hand every day I was there, messing about with Takamisakari after the dohyo iri, throwing Hakuho around in asa geiko, and so on.

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There is no mistake but the problem is that of course Shoryu treats people with respect when they come to see him in admiration and so.

Can you give the name of somebody who met him and found him unfair, impolite, rude without reason ? Otherwise you will have to admit that yours are speculations. It would be so easy to say: I don't like him. It is your undisputable right for any reason. But how can you define so clearly a person's character without ever having met him ?

Speculation based on my impressions of course. He may be a really humane human with pleasant aura off-duty but I just think it is otherwise. Speculation clearly rather than defining clearly.

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As Mongolian I am trying to be as neutral as I can to the whole shebang(?). But I don't really understand the all negativity towards Asa. The Japanese public or wanna be japanese, seems to have their own view but the man really has tried everything to please the Japanese public and Kyokai.

He doesn't have to "please" anybody. He has to fulfill his duties as a yokozuna and act like one, or at least how the NSK sees a yokozuna, which is pretty straight forward to me... Maybe what the NSK demand is way too difficult. The door is open to anyone who wishes to leave. Asa does not wish to leave, apparently..

If you dont know someone personally , how can you make a judgment about some one.

Come on Buba, your English skills are good enough to understand that this has nothing to do with how he is personally or knowing him. You don't have to know any of the tour De France dope offending cyclists who were caught cheating to form a view on their actions. And the way he is portrayed at present as a sniveling, self pitying wreck (by his own camp, BTW) is much, much worse than what anyone here can ever think of him

For the rest open your eyes and start enjoy sumo as it is. No smartA... replyes needed.

You, or anyone else, can't deny me my"smartA" reply!!

Edited by Kintamayama

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The Japanese public or wanna be japanese, seems to have their own view but the man really has tried everything to please the Japanese public and Kyokai.

He doesn't have to "please" anybody. He has to fulfill his duties as a yokozuna and act like one, or at least how the NSK sees a yokozuna, which is pretty straight forward to me...

Either way, it's clear that Asashoryu has failed. He may have "tried everything", but it didn't work. He wasn't adaptable and never "grew into the job".

A yokozuna is a lot more than someone who simply does the best sumo on the dohyo.

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Asa had a garlic injection yesterday. Someone will elaborate. The rijikai will have a special meeting, and it seems the last say concerning a Mongolian recuperation will be solely in the hands of Kitanoumi rijicho.

Generally, the online articles are now taking a more sympathetic view on Asa. Maybe "feeling sorry" is more accurate..

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Asa had a garlic injection yesterday. Someone will elaborate. The rijikai will have a special meeting, and it seems the last say concerning a Mongolian recuperation will be solely in the hands of Kitanoumi rijicho.

Generally, the online articles are now taking a more sympathetic view on Asa. Maybe "feeling sorry" is more accurate..

But also doctors recommend hospitalization as the better alternative than Mongolia. It is said now that there is a possibility that permission to return to Mongolia is given though. It all depends on the meeting that takes place after Rijicho has returned from his vacation on 9th. "One option is to return to Mongolia, one is to get admitted to hospital, latter is better" seems to be the prevailing standpoint for now. Problem is how would they actually get Shoryu to hospital...

Edited by Kaikitsune Makoto

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Problem is how would they actually get Shoryu to hospital...

Ambulance?

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The situation as it stands is like this: The "unbiased" psychiatrist that the Kyokai dispatched to see Asashoryu diagnosed the yokozuna's condition as "acute stress disorder." Dr. Honda, who saw Asashoryu a few days ago, called the condition "pre-depresion." Regardless of which diagnosis is more accurate, Ryu is quite ill. Dr. Yoshida of the Sumo Medical Clinic said right after seeing the yokozuna, "He is not faking it. He seems much worse for wear. I believe he needs treatment. [A return to Mongolia] is one of the options."

However, he amended his position a bit at the press conference. There he asserted that it would require some time to observe the yokozuna before making a decision on what is the best treatment. He said, "The choice is between hospitalization [in Japan] and sending him back to Mongolia. I think hospitalization would be better."

Takasago Oyakata said at the conference, "I am relieved it is not depression. Truthfully, I think hospitalization is best but, given the circumstances, that would be difficult. To get him well is the priority, but I really don't know what we should do. We need to see how things develop in the next few days." As for Ryu going back to Mongolia, the shisho said, "I don't think that would be for the best, so I am not going to bring that up."

For the yokozuna to return to Mongolia, it would require approval by the Kyokai board. Since Kitanoumi Rijicho is out of town, he will not receive the report until the 8th. A board meeting probably would not be called until the 9th or later. The rijicho has already expressed his willingness to discuss the matter seriously once the diagnosis is out. However, there are many on the board that are adamantly opposed to allowing Asashoryu to return home.

Hidenoyama Oyakata, former sekiwake Hasegawa, demanded, "Why can't he receive treatment in Japan. Why do they insist on his returning to Mongolia?" He added that he would be opposed to Ryu's going home. "He is under kinshin restrictions. To approve it would not be fair to the other rikishi."

Oshima Oyakata predictably is even more intransigent. "If he goes home, then there is no meaning to kinshin," he said. Oshima couldn't care less about the mumbo jumbo of "acute stress disorder." "If he has stress, he can get well by sweating it out [in keiko]."

Other board members have said they would comply with the doctor's orders, but it appears that a majority of the board members are opposed to allowing Ryu to return to Mongolia. We shall see what happens.

Edited by madorosumaru

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But I don't really understand the all negativity towards Asa. The Japanese public or wanna be japanese, seems to have their own view but the man really has tried everything to please the Japanese public and Kyokai.

Actually this is not exactly true. If Asashoryu has done one thing, just one thing, after this whole news broke, he could have come back from Mongolia as quickly as he could (instead he did only after summoned back by his shisho and the Kyokai heads).

He could have gathered reporters around and stood up and apologized for his misbehaviour. People whether Japanese or not can be forgiven and magnanimous if they see a person truly repentant of his sin. That in itself leads to his redemption. Asashoryu truly needs to be embraced by Japanese public in this trying time. He needs warm and generous support. But he could only receive it if he can come out clean and honest with himself and sumo fans. Instead of hiding behind the veil of silence, if he has done all that, he could have risen above all this and could have the people pulling for him to come back strong.

Obviously he has done none of this. There was a great opportunity for him to turn from a villain to a babyface overnight by coming out sincere and straight. Asashoryu has shown in the past he could be a real charmer and likable character when he works at it. I believe he still can but the window is ever growing narrower. If he can truly rise above from this and be embraced warmly by people, he can become truly the greatest yokozuna of all time in every aspect. There were many yokozuna who did not become a yokozuna at his age so he still has a lot more possibilities.

Yet at the moment he is fallind into a downward spiral, not speaking out, not eating, not asking for help. Asashoryu has to realize that if he does not come out of this soon, he will have no chance of coming back on the dohyo. Almost six months of non-activity will kill any chance of ever coming back. Asashoryu has never been physically big but he played tough and ramble style of sumo. Rather than pushing out his opponent, he went out and tried to lift him and throw him down. His intention was to bring a fear into his opponents mind. That may have been effective but it took so much toll on his body. It's never easy to play that way against rikishi like Iwakiyama, Miyabiyama or Kotomitsuki for so long.

In recent years his training level has diminished considerably as he tried to rest from all that nagging injuries he suffered through years of physical abuse. But for a smaller rikishi this could become fatal. And I believe without sufficient motivation and intensity, six months of inactivity would kill any chance of him coming back strong. He has to find a goal, something to prove to everyone. Obviously right now he has not shown any of it. How long this can keep going on?

One thing he wanted more than anything else was to have the people acknowledge him as a great yokozuna. His record shows he is one but in every other aspect he knows himself the people haven't come around to believe he is the one. To be truly acknowledged as one, he will need the sumo fans to cheer for him, pulling for him. It is still possible but he has to change his way of thinking. He needs to have a courage to tell people that he has made errors and to pledge he would do everything in his power to prove he is worthy of their respect and support.

Without it and to salvage his all accomplishments, the only recourse left for him is to retire gracefully sooner the better.

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But I don't really understand the all negativity towards Asa. The Japanese public or wanna be japanese, seems to have their own view but the man really has tried everything to please the Japanese public and Kyokai.

Actually this is not exactly true. If Asashoryu has done one thing, just one thing, after this whole news broke, he could have come back from Mongolia as quickly as he could (instead he did only after summoned back by his shisho and the Kyokai heads).

He could have gathered reporters around and stood up and apologized for his misbehaviour. People whether Japanese or not can be forgiven and magnanimous if they see a person truly repentant of his sin. That in itself leads to his redemption. Asashoryu truly needs to be embraced by Japanese public in this trying time. He needs warm and generous support. But he could only receive it if he can come out clean and honest with himself and sumo fans. Instead of hiding behind the veil of silence, if he has done all that, he could have risen above all this and could have the people pulling for him to come back strong.

Obviously he has done none of this. There was a great opportunity for him to turn from a villain to a babyface overnight by coming out sincere and straight. Asashoryu has shown in the past he could be a real charmer and likable character when he works at it. I believe he still can but the window is ever growing narrower. If he can truly rise above from this and be embraced warmly by people, he can become truly the greatest yokozuna of all time in every aspect. There were many yokozuna who did not become a yokozuna at his age so he still has a lot more possibilities.

Yet at the moment he is fallind into a downward spiral, not speaking out, not eating, not asking for help. Asashoryu has to realize that if he does not come out of this soon, he will have no chance of coming back on the dohyo. Almost six months of non-activity will kill any chance of ever coming back. Asashoryu has never been physically big but he played tough and ramble style of sumo. Rather than pushing out his opponent, he went out and tried to lift him and throw him down. His intention was to bring a fear into his opponents mind. That may have been effective but it took so much toll on his body. It's never easy to play that way against rikishi like Iwakiyama, Miyabiyama or Kotomitsuki for so long.

In recent years his training level has diminished considerably as he tried to rest from all that nagging injuries he suffered through years of physical abuse. But for a smaller rikishi this could become fatal. And I believe without sufficient motivation and intensity, six months of inactivity would kill any chance of him coming back strong. He has to find a goal, something to prove to everyone. Obviously right now he has not shown any of it. How long this can keep going on?

One thing he wanted more than anything else was to have the people acknowledge him as a great yokozuna. His record shows he is one but in every other aspect he knows himself the people haven't come around to believe he is the one. To be truly acknowledged as one, he will need the sumo fans to cheer for him, pulling for him. It is still possible but he has to change his way of thinking. He needs to have a courage to tell people that he has made errors and to pledge he would do everything in his power to prove he is worthy of their respect and support.

Without it and to salvage his all accomplishments, the only recourse left for him is to retire gracefully sooner the better.

The problem is he still sees himself wrongfully accused (If you consider the soccer match was a charity event involving Mongolian and Japanese children plus a famous Japanese star , I see him wrongfully accused too).

I don't buy into the pre-depression or any other mental illness thing. He's acting like a spoiled child (he's actually one) and trying to prove his innocense by acting stupid (Oh...he's boiling).

Whether he feels wrongfully accused or not he should accept the Kyokai decision and stop acting. Sending him to Mongolia or hospital wouldn't do any good to him. Oshima's tough stance is only way to "cure".

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He is under kinshin restrictions.

What does Kinshin mean ? Punition ? (In jonokuchi...)

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