Sumo support

[Guest Mirabiyama]

This was my first basho to see and my friends and I worked hard to save enough money to go there and get nice box seats. But I'm really annoyed by all the people (special westerners) who come there, buy the cheapest ticket and occupy the best seats, sometimes not even moving voluntarily when you want to go to your paid seat. A lot of westerners came there quite often or every day, pretending to love the sumo and knowing more than anyone else about it but not willing to support the kyokai and living on others who paid for their seats.

Is this really the way it should be?

[Randomitsuki 2,768]

This was my first basho to see and my friends and I worked hard to save enough money to go there and get nice box seats. But I'm really annoyed by all the people (special westerners) who come there, buy the cheapest ticket and occupy the best seats, sometimes not even moving voluntarily when you want to go to your paid seat. A lot of westerners came there quite often or every day, pretending to love the sumo and knowing more than anyone else about it but not willing to support the kyokai and living on others who paid for their seats.

Is this really the way it should be?

Chances are high that many of the Westerners you saw are members of this forum (I am not worthy...). But seriously, when I was in the Kokugikan for the first time, I felt the same and was pretty hesitant to move to seats that I haven't paid for. But as a matter of fact, most seats at ringside aren't taken until Juryo, so there is no reason not to sit down there. Of course, one should be polite enough to move immediately once the seat-holders arrive.

Edited May 28, 2007 by Randomitsuki

[Fay 1,677]

I always pay a lot for my tamari tickets and sometimes I'm lucky enough to get one or two for free from the Heya. I don't mind if there are people sitting who love the sport and obviously can't pay for the expensive seats - and there are a lot of japanese I saw each day, who can't and they always move away immediately. But if you can afford the journey to Japan or you live there and earn enough money, you should pay the prices for the things you want to have. For me it's one of the few possibilities I have to support my favourite sport.

But I guess, in the end this is more or less an ethical question.

[Jonosuke 28]

But I'm really annoyed by all the people (special westerners) who come there, buy the cheapest ticket and occupy the best seats, sometimes not even moving voluntarily when you want to go to your paid seat. A lot of westerners came there quite often or every day, pretending to love the sumo and knowing more than anyone else about it but not willing to support the kyokai and living on others who paid for their seats.

Normally when you buy a Masu seat box from a Chaya, someone will go with you and show you to the place. If there is anyone sitting there, they will politely ask them to leave. I have never seen anyone refusing to move.

I somehow feel rather uneasy of your description of those who come to see sumo bouts as "pretending to love" or "not willing to support the Kyokai" regardless of which ticket they bought. They are there because they love sumo or at least interested. Even buying the cheapest ticket they are supporting the Kyokai just like you are but not at the same level. Having able to buy a Tamari seat does not make anyone more of sumo fan.

There are enough people all around Japan who have never been to see a hon basho live but are either watching on TV or listening to radio broadcast but they are as passionate about sumo as you and me. There are those who can afford to pay 1 million yen a year to the Kyokai and support them and I am sure the Kyokai appreciate their support dearly.

However if the Kyokai start ignoring ordinary fans who enjoy sumo by watching TV or listening to radio, then their future is very bleak indeed. As much as they need money, they need mass, popular support. Because these are the people who support the sport at grassroots level, sending their sons to join Ozumo, be a rikishi or yobidashi or gyoji or make the TV and radio broadcast possible.

This summer the Kyokai arranged a special Jyungo tour to Yubari City in Hokkaido. Yubari is well known in Japan for its delicious melon but recently they became infamous because the city went bankrupt. Seniors and low income people were the first to suffer as the city started cutting back various social services. With assistances from other governments and corporations, they were able to re-arrange their loan payments and they are on their way to a financial recovery.

As you may be aware there are many passionate sumo fans in Hokkaido - great rikishis have come from there. Obviously people in Yubari would love to see Ozumo in their city just like others but obviously it's impossible at this time. Ozumo people realised this too so they are going there this year anyway, because they want to help and foster a goodwill.

This year's tour stop at Yubari the Kyokai is charging no admission. I believe you can hardly characterize the people in Yubari as "not willing to support the kyokai and living on others who paid for their seats".

Edited May 28, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Kintamayama 44,350]

This whole topic was discussed ad nauseum a while ago. Foreigners are always indignant and wish to preserve the "local" traditions.

Take it easy. It's totally OK to do it. If it wasn't, the ushers would be at the criminals' throats admonishing them. You don't have to do it if your conscience bothers you, but it's OK. It's not bad manners. The "locals" do it on a much larger scale, but they're not blond so it's hard to notice.

[Fay 1,677]

Don't know why you feel adressed, all I said is that I feel more comfortable and for me it's an ethical decision to pay for that what I want. If at all I could refer to someone at this lovely sumotalk forum who praised himself to buy the low-budget tickets and always sits on the best seats.

As I don't have the possibility to be there the whole year it's one chance to support, not more and not less. I don't care at all how much money you spend, if I decide to support some Heya or some rikishi it's a private matter between them and me and I don't need to make a big deal out of it. As Jonosuke said, money doesn't make a fan.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

This whole topic was discussed ad nauseum a while ago. Foreigners are always indignant and wish to preserve the "local" traditions.

Take it easy. It's totally OK to do it. If it wasn't, the ushers would be at the criminals' throats admonishing them. You don't have to do it if your conscience bothers you, but it's OK. It's not bad manners. The "locals" do it on a much larger scale, but they're not blond so it's hard to notice.

I think Kinta-san is spot on here. It IS a local tradition. I learned it from Japanese friends, who learned it from their friends and family and fellow fans, and so on. The ushers and NSK staff are not blind to it, and often help those who are looking for a temporary close-up view. It's one of the many charms of seeing sumo live. It's not so much a matter of ethics as an issue of personal comfort zones.

[Kintamayama 44,350]

Don't know why you feel adressed, all I said is that I feel more comfortable and for me it's an ethical decision to pay for that what I want. If at all I could refer to someone at this lovely sumotalk forum who praised himself to buy the low-budget tickets and always sits on the best seats.

That would be me. My justification would be that I think I've done a lot in my short life to bring sumo closer to many foreign fans using all of my spare time, which is quite expensive these days. That is, if I felt I need to justify myself to anyone, which I sure as hell don't.

[aderechelsea 124]

i sat in the Tamari seats everyday when i visited the Kokugikan along with many Japanese fans who left their seats as soon as Juryo started.They were doing exactly the same thing as i was and they had paid a ticket just like me.

we all supported the Kyokai with our money and we just took some of the scraps from other real sumo fans who only bother for makuuchi division bouts.... (Showing respect...)

if the place was packed from the start nobody would have taken the tamari seats .... (Zabuton flying...)

and anyway .... just relax and enjoy .... you are in the kokugikan !!!!

[philafuji 1]

(Showing respect...)

Jonosuke you are indeed the Yoda of the English speaking sumo world.

You have more insight in any one of your posts than the rest of us plebs have in a thousand.

Exactly, Nishinoshima said it all.

We are very fortunate to have you on this forum.

[ilovesumo 12]

This ... here made me cry. Thanks. Now I go to my 800 yen per hour arubaito and do an other 14 hours but I am not willing to support the Kyokai by buying the 20.000 yen ticket getting my butt hurt sitting there in this great building for 10 hours a day 15 days in a row. Being kicked out is ok cause I know I am one who can't pay 14.000 for each day. And I move, then standing behind the last row of seats in the first floor for 2 more hours to see what I love. Because I love it. Everything is because I love it...

Bye.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

This ... here made me cry. Thanks. Now I go to my 800 yen per hour arubaito and do an other 14 hours but I am not willing to support the Kyokai by buying the 20.000 yen ticket getting my butt hurt sitting there in this great building for 10 hours a day 15 days in a row. Being kicked out is ok cause I know I am one who can't pay 14.000 for each day. And I move, then standing behind the last row of seats in the first floor for 2 more hours to see what I love. Because I love it. Everything is because I love it...

Bye.

I wonder if you'd enjoy working as a waitress at an izakaya? A young lady I taught English is now a second year student at a university in Tokyo. She makes 1000 yen/hour slinging suds and serving squid to thirsty Tokyoites. No doubt you could earn a bit of extra cash and the hours shouldn't interfere much with school or sumo (In a state of confusion...)

[ilovesumo 12]

I have 20% off, cause I am on a working Holiday visa- these 20% are tax.

I still can't get over this topic here... (Sigh...)

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

I have 20% off, cause I am on a working Holiday visa- these 20% are tax.

I still can't get over this topic here... (Sigh...)

Nur ruhe m

[Misisko 0]

I have 20% off, cause I am on a working Holiday visa- these 20% are tax.

I still can't get over this topic here... :-)

Take it easy... People like you or Nishinoshima or Fay are one of the best supporters of sumo because you are supporting sumo fans, fans who have never been in Japan, Without your photos and videos many sumofans like me would never feel the real athmosphere of basho or keiko. (Sigh...)

[Naganoyama 5,841]

I suspect that the Kyokai are quite pleased that people sit up front at a time when the seats are mostly empty. It certainly looks better on TV.

[_the_mind_ 0]

This was my first basho to see and my friends and I worked hard to save enough money to go there and get nice box seats. But I'm really annoyed by all the people (special westerners) who come there, buy the cheapest ticket and occupy the best seats, sometimes not even moving voluntarily when you want to go to your paid seat. A lot of westerners came there quite often or every day, pretending to love the sumo and knowing more than anyone else about it but not willing to support the kyokai and living on others who paid for their seats.

Is this really the way it should be?

well they should just ban all of these evil "westerners", thats what you want right?...i sincerely doubt the evil "westerners" refuse to move when the people who hold the tickets for said seats show up, as you suggest

Edited June 11, 2007 by _the_mind_

[Reki 0]

This topic makes me sad. (Bomb about to be blown...)

There's no chance in this life time for me to go to japan and watch sumo live at the kokugikan, but if a miracle happens and I

[troutbum 0]

Don't know why you feel adressed, all I said is that I feel more comfortable and for me it's an ethical decision to pay for that what I want. If at all I could refer to someone at this lovely sumotalk forum who praised himself to buy the low-budget tickets and always sits on the best seats.

As I don't have the possibility to be there the whole year it's one chance to support, not more and not less. I don't care at all how much money you spend, if I decide to support some Heya or some rikishi it's a private matter between them and me and I don't need to make a big deal out of it. As Jonosuke said, money doesn't make a fan.

Have to agree with Fay here. Westerners can get away with that behaviour in Japan, because they are not taken seriously by most Japanese anyway. But the strange thing is that gaijins dont seem to behave the same in other events. Like I have never seen anybody at the Opera or in a soccer match buy the cheapest ticket and then sit in the most expensive one and pretend he didnt know when the true owner of that seat came. Maybe it is the soo soo great love for Sumo as pointed out in this thread that leads to such erratic behaviour.

[James H 0]

Have to agree with Fay here. Westerners can get away with that behaviour in Japan, because they are not taken seriously by most Japanese anyway. But the strange thing is that gaijins dont seem to behave the same in other events. Like I have never seen anybody at the Opera or in a soccer match buy the cheapest ticket and then sit in the most expensive one and pretend he didnt know when the true owner of that seat came. Maybe it is the soo soo great love for Sumo as pointed out in this thread that leads to such erratic behaviour.

I'm not sure the comparison is fair... at the kokugikan, there is a years-old convention that early birds can sit in seats that aren't really theirs, as has been pointed out ad infinitum above. Japanese people of all ages and backgrounds do it, foreign-born people do it, hell, I've seen oyakata and journalists do it.

If you go to a J.League game or the opera in Tokyo, nobody does it because it is not the convention. The same way it is not the convention on shinkansen (and the ticket men do get angry).

So if it is ok for the locals - and I have never seen an usher at the sumo get angry with someone - then why is it bad for foreigners? Should we really know better, or are we just showing how well we have assimilated?

The only argument over seats I saw last tournament was caused by a clearly drunk middle-aged Japanese man who sat in the Mainichi Shimbun's press seats with his date. When the Mainichi man turned up at 5 p.m., the oyaji refused to move and started the old "baka-yaro" shouting, which was returned with interest by the Mainichi man... Not a foreigner involved.

(If we really want to get into foreigners misunderstanding sumo customs, then throwing zabutons might be a better place to start... :-S )

[Kotonosato 1]

James H. is quite right. It is perfectly acceptable to sit wherever you want at the K'kan until the owner of the seat shows up. You don't have to pretend to be in the wrong seat, as was suggested earlier. It's a matter of course that you might go to the good sits when they're empty.

On the other hand, throwing zabuton is expressly forbidden. Announcements are made when it happens, but to little effect. This is not foreigner-related behavior however. It's the rowdy locals in Fukuoka and Osaka that are the worst culprits. :-S

[kawika 123]

I recommend taking this question/topic to the olde Doreen Simmons, who is the instructor of all gaigens in Kokugikan. She will gladly tell any gaigen what to do and how. In the case of sitting on the pillow seats, she would recommend that when you are asked to move, you get up, and before moving on, you flip the pillow over. Doreen is full of sightful tips! :-)

[Jonosuke 28]

I recommend taking this question/topic to the olde Doreen Simmons, who is the instructor of all gaigens in Kokugikan.

You will generally find her at the Kokugikan most days around a bit after 9 AM for an hour or so at the corner Masu A seat at the East aisle but I'd suggest you make your questions brief as she is extremly busy lady. She is hard to miss.