Kintamayama

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On 07/09/2023 at 09:04, Akinomaki said:

Nowadays I think mainly of Miyagino and Nishonoseki in that category, but if the kabu stays in the ichimon, Asanoyama may be the one who bought it.

This raised a couple of questions in my mind, I'm sure some of you have the answers. My guesses within parentheses.

- If an on-loan kabu goes through a change of owner and the borrower is set to continue regardless, is it a seamless transition, or would it at least require some paperwork to make it official & a new stint to begin? (Likely, would probably fly under the radar)

- If an active rikishi buys a kabu that's active via its owner, is the incumbent oyakata allowed to stay on duty as a borrower? (Not as likely, but this might happen frequently with sanyo people, and would also fly under the radar - it would only be made official later on, causing some ruckus in this thread as nobody is sure about what really happened.)

Edited by Koorifuu
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On 09/09/2023 at 02:49, Kintamayama said:

Tokushouryuu is kyujo-seems like preparation for intai. He holds what?

I don't think he holds anything right now. 

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25 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

I don't think he holds anything right now. 

Can likely borrow who?

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Maybe we're entering an Izutsu revolving door. August/September Akiseyama, October/November Tokushoryu, December/January Hidenoumi, February onward Shimanoumi...

In all seriousness: I guess he'll borrow the Otowayama name? There might be something there in case the myoseki is attached to Onosho, as has been rumoured for a long while now. They're apparently close ever since Kindai University-era Tokushoryu once tagged along with classmate Takarafuji to the latter's hometown in Aomori, and took a (same hometown) elementary school-age Onosho under his wing while there. Onosho has reportedly described Tokushoryu as "like a big brother to me".

Edited by Asashosakari
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My wrong prediction notwithstanding, the whole thing makes very little sense at this stage, and I have a feeling that we're missing a few puzzle pieces that are needed to see the full picture. A prime-age oyakata leaving the Kyokai and his kabu doesn't go to a new owner, just a borrower?

FWIW, over in Japanese fan circles some more or less outlandish (YMMV) bits of speculation have been making the rounds, but none of those are a particularly good fit for the known facts.

1) There's the idea that the Sendagawa kabu has really been secretly owned by its former user Maenoyama (turned 65 in 2010) all along, with Toki just borrowing it and paying money for the privilege for the last 11 years, and as Maenoyama died two and a half year ago it has now come to the point that his family had to sell. I suppose that's not totally inconceivable because it could explain the kabu shifting to a borrower in a different ichimon, if the new owner is somebody in the Dewanoumi group (but not Tokushoryu himself). What doesn't make a whole lot of sense is why Maenoyama would have decided to retain ownership for so long to begin with. At the risk of being cynical, most 65-year-old ex-oyakata aren't expected to live long enough to make a series of monthly payments more valuable than cashing out immediately. (And it doesn't seem to be a situation like Miyagino decades ago where the oyakata's widow spent 15 years waiting for her daughter's future husband to appear, not that that worked out all that well with Kanechika in the end anyway.)

2) Another theory is that Nishikido (ex-Mitoizumi) has somehow been responsible for Toki holding the kabu in the first place, i.e. he's either a secret owner himself (contravening Kyokai rules against double ownership) or he has been supporting Toki's financial duties towards the actual owner, with Toki obligated to work in Nishikido's stable in return. There's some merit to this notion - Toki moved to Nishikido-beya from Kokonoe only a couple of months after he took on the Sendagawa share, and he had previously moved from Takasago to Kokonoe as well while he was officially borrowing the Sanoyama name owned by still-active Chiyotaikai. The idea here is that Mitoizumi is looking for somebody to take over Nishikido-beya when he turns 65 in four years, implying that Toki is not / no longer the successor Mitoizumi wants so he had to be replaced. But if Tokushoryu is the newly anointed candidate, why aren't they just doing the same thing as before and presenting him as the Sendagawa kabu owner? And if it's not Tokushoryu but another yet to be revealed rikishi, why did Toki need to go at this point in time?

3) And then there's the idea that the real Sendagawa owner is Takadagawa (ex-Akinoshima), who was the acknowledged owner until 2009 when he swapped with Maenoyama to inherit Takadagawa-beya. The implication here is that they didn't actually swap, but that Akinoshima bought out Maenoyama to hold both kabu afterwards, and that he did so to pre-emptively stockpile shares for the stable's sekitori. The main problems with that conjecture are that Takadagawa-beya didn't actually have any rikishi who were anywhere near kabu eligibility back in 2009, and none of the ones it does have today is particularly close to retiring. And as Akinoshima's ichimon membership (Nishonoseki) is different both from Toki's as well as Tokushoryu's, there's no apparent reason why he would have suddenly decided to put the kabu on somebody else like this after more than a decade.

Obviously, the boring non-conspiratorial scenario would be that Toki is in fact the Sendagawa owner and he either just got tired of working in the Kyokai, or he had private reasons to cash out on his kabu at this time. (I hope it's nothing health-related.) FWIW, Twitter user "ryogokulove", who seems to have at least some connections to sumo world people, is indicating that Toki is moving to a job with a company that provides construction/setup services for jungyo locations, which would be a logical continuation of his years-long work in the Kyokai's jungyo department. This fan suggests theory #2 as the correct one.

Perhaps it's a mix of #2 and the boring one, in that Toki would have known that his Kyokai days were numbered so he left when the job offer came along, and Tokushoryu is just a lucky stop-gap holder of the Sendagawa name, with no real connection to the wider Nishikido successor issue. I'm not entirely sure I'm willing to believe the core premise that Mitoizumi has had the power (financial and otherwise) to orchestrate all this though.


Edit: I'm obviously hoping to have the last laugh and see Tokushoryu move on to the Otowayama kabu down the line. ;-) If the true story is really just that Toki wanted to leave, it could be as simple as Kise-beya (which, as mentioned, has a number of people in immediate or near-term need of shares) jumping on the chance to grab the Sendagawa name before anyone else would, knowing that Tokushoryu would always have Otowayama to fall back on later when Sendagawa is needed for another Kise member.

Edited by Asashosakari
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On 08/09/2023 at 14:41, Koorifuu said:

This raised a couple of questions in my mind, I'm sure some of you have the answers. My guesses within parentheses.

- If an on-loan kabu goes through a change of owner and the borrower is set to continue regardless, is it a seamless transition, or would it at least require some paperwork to make it official & a new stint to begin? (Likely, would probably fly under the radar)

- If an active rikishi buys a kabu that's active via its owner, is the incumbent oyakata allowed to stay on duty as a borrower? (Not as likely, but this might happen frequently with sanyo people, and would also fly under the radar - it would only be made official later on, causing some ruckus in this thread as nobody is sure about what really happened.)

My understanding is that if you're presenting to the Kyokai as a new owner-oyakata, you're expected to be able to show the certificate at that time, but afterwards re-verification is not done at all, unless exceptional circumstances arise. What specific sort of evidence you're expected to show upfront as a borrower, I have no idea, but I'm assuming the same no re-verification approach applies to them as well, so in your first scenario I don't believe anyone is required to do anything; it's just assumed that the loaning arrangement continues unchanged. If the new owner wanted to withdraw recognition of the loan, he could presumably just notify the board of directors of that - keeping in mind that such adversarial behaviour isn't normally how things are done in the Kyokai.

As for the second scenario, I don't believe that's allowed at all, and when it has happened anyway, it was discovered not through any codified means. Wajima illicitly handing over his certificate to outside people as loan collateral in 1985 was seemingly found out through rumour, and in 2013 we had the aforementioned exceptional circumstances when it looked like the Kyokai was gearing up for centralized kabu management and they instituted a one-time requirement for every active, owning oyakata to re-present his certificate. You can start reading about that here. In short, 5 oyakata were unable to produce the certificate for their myoseki - of them, two cases (Shikihide and Kumagatani) were resolved by getting the certificate holders (a retired ex-oyakata and a widow, respectively) to cough them up eventually, one (Naruto, also a widow involved) resulted in the oyakata changing to a different kabu, one (Magaki) ended up with the oyakata retiring altogether because he'd passed it on to an active rikishi and they couldn't agree on how to handle things, and the last case (Kasugayama) went into legal hell for the next few years.

The Magaki situation is the one relevant to your question, and as the linked kabu data indicates, the active rikishi in question had been Tokitenku. That was only acknowledged at the time that's now reflected as the recognized change of ownership, half a year after the disallowed transfer was actually discovered. (The whole thing is particularly messy because when Tokitenku received the certificate in 2013 or possibly earlier, he wasn't even a Japanese citizen yet.) So yeah, while such "early" transfers undoubtedly happen, the old owner that's still using the rights of the kabu to be oyakata will have a major problem on his hands if it becomes public. The Kyokai itself would probably try to keep things under wraps; the 2013 situation was an extraordinary one where that was just not possible. At any rate, from what we can tell it's impossible to voluntarily and officially step back from fully owned kabu status to that of a borrower. It would potentially be hard to administrate anyway, considering that kabu-owning oyakata with seniority are receiving certain salary benefits that borrowers can never obtain - there might be legal issues with cutting a guy's salary just because he decided to trade away his kabu, and leaving his full salary in place would create some perverse incentives.

Edited by Asashosakari
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New rumours about the Otowayama kabu and the future of Michinoku https://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2023/10081057/

The tabloid article claims that Kakuryu refused to obtain Otowayama - without telling what he wants to do instead to remain in the NSK.

The plan was that he'll switch kabu when Michinoku turns 65, become the intermediate 10th Michinoku till Kirishima retires and takes over the heya, with Kakuryu to branch out with a new Otowayama-beya.

But now it seems the heya will fold next year, Michinoku won't prolong the contract for the heya premises - it didn't belong to him, and the victim of the Michinoku violence Yasunishi and those on his side don't want to be with the oyakata anymore.

So maybe Tokushoryu indeed will get Otowayama

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Wow, twists and turns!

Kakuryu turning down a kabu? I didn't see that coming.

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1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Wow, twists and turns!

Kakuryu turning down a kabu? I didn't see that coming.

Could be the price is too high, especially without an existing heya building to go with it. 

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3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The plan was that he'll switch kabu when Michinoku turns 65, become the intermediate 10th Michinoku till Kirishima retires and takes over the heya, with Kakuryu to branch out with a new Otowayama-beya.

It was about some other heya (I forgot which), but over in the Japanese kabu discussions I lurk at somebody made the sensible point a couple of months ago that these "just get an interim shisho in there until the real intended successor is in position to take over the prestigious stable" ideas always sound good to fans (and I guess tabloid journalists) in theory but are practically never seen in reality.

 

23 minutes ago, Kujo said:

Could be the price is too high, especially without an existing heya building to go with it. 

Can't imagine that that's a consideration that plays any role for Kakuryu. Unless you're the outright successor to a kabu and heya, they're never a package deal. And even in those cases the physical heya will often remain the property of whoever held it before, so all the new guy gets is the option to keep using it temporarily until he sources his own place.

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8 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It was about some other heya (I forgot which), but over in the Japanese kabu discussions I lurk at somebody made the sensible point a couple of months ago that these "just get an interim shisho in there until the real intended successor is in position to take over the prestigious stable" ideas always sound good to fans (and I guess tabloid journalists) in theory but are practically never seen in reality.

Just to add, one context in which this is coming up frequently of late is Otake-beya, where ex-Dairyu turns 65 in two years but the "obvious" intended successor Oho will only be 25 by then. I've yet to see somebody try to mash up both issues and proclaim that Kakuryu will step in to become Otake-oyakata until Oho's ready, but it's probably just a matter of time until it gets suggested unironically.

What's actually been seen a few times throughout sumo history is that the heya just shuts down unceremoniously, but then a spiritual successor is created under the same name by a member of the old one a few years down the line. However, that was back when any oyakata could start a heya, not only those who had highly successful dohyo careers.

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Latest tabloid talk:

Wakamatsu (Asanowaka) will become independent in the near future and later switch kabu with Nishikido, taking over the heya in a few years, bringing with him his uchi-deshi Asanoyama and the others from Kindai (Asagyokusei and Osanai - likely also Toyodai's Asanowaka). The new Sendagawa (Tokushoryu) will take the place there of the old as well (first in the new main part of Takasago, then Nishikido) - as usual said to be from an NSK related person.  http://www.asagei.com/excerpt/288388

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Terunofuji can't retire because he needs a kabu. He has to get one within 2 years till the oyakata switches to consultant and the heya needs a new shisho, to switch kabu with him - and he likely won't find a kabu with the present shortage. The heya has Tateyama (Homarefuji) and Takarafuji who is said to own the Kiriyama kabu, now borrowed by Asahisho from Oshima-beya - one of them may become "intermediate" shisho and Terunofuji remain like Kakuryu with the 5 year temporary kabu, till ex-Asahifuji leaves the NSK and has him get his kabu and the heya.  http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20231112_1919673.html

Implying that Terunofuji has to go on till Natsu 2025, when the Isegahama kabu becomes available, and that the "intermediate" shisho will agree to step down again

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On 08/10/2023 at 10:38, Akinomaki said:

New rumours about the Otowayama kabu and the future of Michinoku https://www.dailyshincho.jp/article/2023/10081057/

The tabloid article claims that Kakuryu refused to obtain Otowayama - without telling what he wants to do instead to remain in the NSK.

The plan was that he'll switch kabu when Michinoku turns 65, become the intermediate 10th Michinoku till Kirishima retires and takes over the heya, with Kakuryu to branch out with a new Otowayama-beya.

But now it seems the heya will fold next year, Michinoku won't prolong the contract for the heya premises - it didn't belong to him, and the victim of the Michinoku violence Yasunishi and those on his side don't want to be with the oyakata anymore.

So maybe Tokushoryu indeed will get Otowayama

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Terunofuji can't retire because he needs a kabu. He has to get one within 2 years till the oyakata switches to consultant and the heya needs a new shisho, to switch kabu with him - and he likely won't find a kabu with the present shortage. The heya has Tateyama (Homarefuji) and Takarafuji who is said to own the Kiriyama kabu, now borrowed by Asahisho from Oshima-beya - one of them may become "intermediate" shisho and Terunofuji remain like Kakuryu with the 5 year temporary kabu, till ex-Asahifuji leaves the NSK and has him get his kabu and the heya.  http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20231112_1919673.html

Implying that Terunofuji has to go on till Natsu 2025, when the Isegahama kabu becomes available, and that the "intermediate" shisho will agree to step down again

There is some really weird talk here. There are basically two ex Yokozuna almost out in the cold while a bunch of career rank-and-file thrive and prosper as NSK members. I wonder whether Michinoku and Isegahama would consider to waive their position as consultant and hand over the kabu once they reach retirement age. I guess that's not on the table if those rumors are true, but that's a totally awkward situation if we look back at precedents. Terunofuji in particular has little room to move around unless he's going to pull a Musashimaru and borrow some kabu until ex Asahifuji does not need Isegahama anymore in 2030 (well, also Kakuryu can do that technically). There's no way he can stay active until Nagoya 2025 with that body of his - there's no way that he can remain active now at this point.

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On 12/11/2023 at 11:27, Akinomaki said:

Latest tabloid talk:

Wakamatsu (Asanowaka) will become independent in the near future and later switch kabu with Nishikido, taking over the heya in a few years, bringing with him his uchi-deshi Asanoyama and the others from Kindai (Asagyokusei and Osanai - likely also Toyodai's Asanowaka). The new Sendagawa (Tokushoryu) will take the place there of the old as well (first in the new main part of Takasago, then Nishikido) - as usual said to be from an NSK related person.  http://www.asagei.com/excerpt/288388

This might be the weirdest set of rumours/claims ever. Are any of these guys even officially acknowledged as Wakamatsu's uchi-deshi, or is this some kind of "well, now that ex-Asashio is dead, ex-Asanowaka has 'inherited' all the ex-Kindai guys from him" assumption by the writer? And that's before we even get to pointing out that ex-Asanowaka will be 54 next month; not exactly prime "new shisho" age. Even as a stop-gap shisho towards Asanoyama taking over it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, since the latter will hardly need the decayed remains of Nishikido-beya to have a heya eventually.

BTW, to be clear: "Wakamatsu will become independent" needs to be read as "will change heya" here; ex-Asanowaka doesn't qualify for branching out, so his options are limited to joining Nishikido-beya as affiliated oyakata or taking it over immediately. I believe the article means to imply the latter as what's going to happen. (Also, I'm actually not sure if he would even be permitted to take uchi-deshi with him if he were to merely join Nishikido as a coach...?)

As for ex-Tokushoryu, even if we're to believe the previously mooted possibility that he is having his Sendagawa kabu financed by Nishikido in some way - though let's not forget that unlike his quasi-precedessor ex-Toki he's presently not even acknowledged as kabu owner - if there's some form of work-for-kabu quid pro quo here, why would that carry over to a Nishikido-beya that's being run by ex-Asanowaka instead? All of this just looks like somebody thinks that there must be some sort of gravitational force that's surely going to bring together anybody with Kindai roots. There are almost 20 years between Asanowaka and Tokushoryu - I'm finding it somewhat hard to believe that the shared alma mater would be that much of a factor here.

That's not to say that this stuff might not actually happen (in whole or in part), but if it does I can't help but think that it amounts to little more than "ex-Mitoizumi has been desperate to find a sucker that's going to pay him some value for the Nishikido-beya assets, such as they are, and he finally found him".

Edited by Asashosakari
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9 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

As for ex-Tokushoryu, even if we're to believe the previously mooted possibility that he is having his Sendagawa kabu financed by Nishikido in some way - though let's not forget that unlike his quasi-precedessor ex-Toki he's presently not even acknowledged as kabu owner - 

Do we know if Toki was owning or borrowing the kabu? I know it doesn't make much sense to leave the JSA when you own a kabu, but have we an official confirmation?

Edited by Tetsuba

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On 13/09/2023 at 00:57, Asashosakari said:

1) There's the idea that the Sendagawa kabu has really been secretly owned by its former user Maenoyama (turned 65 in 2010) all along, with Toki just borrowing it and paying money for the privilege for the last 11 years, and as Maenoyama died two and a half year ago it has now come to the point that his family had to sell. I suppose that's not totally inconceivable because it could explain the kabu shifting to a borrower in a different ichimon, if the new owner is somebody in the Dewanoumi group (but not Tokushoryu himself). What doesn't make a whole lot of sense is why Maenoyama would have decided to retain ownership for so long to begin with. At the risk of being cynical, most 65-year-old ex-oyakata aren't expected to live long enough to make a series of monthly payments more valuable than cashing out immediately. (And it doesn't seem to be a situation like Miyagino decades ago where the oyakata's widow spent 15 years waiting for her daughter's future husband to appear, not that that worked out all that well with Kanechika in the end anyway.)

2) Another theory is that Nishikido (ex-Mitoizumi) has somehow been responsible for Toki holding the kabu in the first place, i.e. he's either a secret owner himself (contravening Kyokai rules against double ownership) or he has been supporting Toki's financial duties towards the actual owner, with Toki obligated to work in Nishikido's stable in return. There's some merit to this notion - Toki moved to Nishikido-beya from Kokonoe only a couple of months after he took on the Sendagawa share, and he had previously moved from Takasago to Kokonoe as well while he was officially borrowing the Sanoyama name owned by still-active Chiyotaikai. The idea here is that Mitoizumi is looking for somebody to take over Nishikido-beya when he turns 65 in four years, implying that Toki is not / no longer the successor Mitoizumi wants so he had to be replaced. But if Tokushoryu is the newly anointed candidate, why aren't they just doing the same thing as before and presenting him as the Sendagawa kabu owner? And if it's not Tokushoryu but another yet to be revealed rikishi, why did Toki need to go at this point in time?

3) And then there's the idea that the real Sendagawa owner is Takadagawa (ex-Akinoshima), who was the acknowledged owner until 2009 when he swapped with Maenoyama to inherit Takadagawa-beya. The implication here is that they didn't actually swap, but that Akinoshima bought out Maenoyama to hold both kabu afterwards, and that he did so to pre-emptively stockpile shares for the stable's sekitori. The main problems with that conjecture are that Takadagawa-beya didn't actually have any rikishi who were anywhere near kabu eligibility back in 2009, and none of the ones it does have today is particularly close to retiring. And as Akinoshima's ichimon membership (Nishonoseki) is different both from Toki's as well as Tokushoryu's, there's no apparent reason why he would have suddenly decided to put the kabu on somebody else like this after more than a decade.

Obviously, the boring non-conspiratorial scenario would be that Toki is in fact the Sendagawa owner and he either just got tired of working in the Kyokai, or he had private reasons to cash out on his kabu at this time. (I hope it's nothing health-related.) FWIW, Twitter user "ryogokulove", who seems to have at least some connections to sumo world people, is indicating that Toki is moving to a job with a company that provides construction/setup services for jungyo locations, which would be a logical continuation of his years-long work in the Kyokai's jungyo department. This fan suggests theory #2 as the correct one.

Takatoriki took up the issue on his channel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzeL7clpGm0

According to him, Toki was just borrowing, was running out of money, having to pay 600 000-700 000 Yen a month to his divorced wife, then remarried with new problems and had given up, not being able to pay any more. Now working for that mentioned company that does dohyo construction, in the Kansai area. No information about borrowing from whom, but general kabu talk.

A kabu on loan is generally at a cost of 100 000 - 200 000 Yen a month - but a gentle owner may give it for free and there may be some who demand 500 000 - with an income after tax of an ordinary oyakata as 700 000 Yen, maybe having to pay half of it, or having to pay a certain sum for half a year - with the owner getting the money without paying taxes for it. He said he himself got Futagoyama for free from Takanohana for Dairyu, but doesn't know if Dairyu later had to pay some monthly fee.

Edited by Akinomaki
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Kakuryū is now Otowayama and will branch out from Michinoku, for those who need a little help with the tweet. 

Otowayama had last been significantly held by Daidō, who took over Ōnomatsu after ex-Masurao was forced to retire for health reasons. It was briefly borrowed by Tenkaihō, but theoretically remained in ex-Masurao's possession.

This will mark the first incarnation of an Otowayama beya since 1946.

Does raise questions over who will succeed to Michinoku, though. Also josses Ōnoshō's or Tokushōryū' s linkage to the name, although within the same ichimon, Tatsutagawa is now free if Ōnoshō is so inclined.

Also what on earth was Shinchu smoking when they said Kakuryū turned down Otowayama?! 

Edited by Seiyashi
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Per the oshirase, Otowayama will move immediately, having secured premises at Mukojima 2-chome 17-ban 11-go (appears to be a preexisting community centre based on GMaps). 

Tokotsuru, Takeuchi, and Hagane will move to Otowayama. 

https://sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokaiInformation/detail?id=624

Presumably Shirasaka will join Otowayama from the off, rather than Michinoku as previously reported, to make 3 rikishi and 1 tokoyama. 

Edited by Seiyashi
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Goss from Herouth is that the Otowayama kabu was intended to be for Ichinojō but Minato oyakata embezzled the money intended to make payments towards Otowayama. After Ichinojō retired without being able to secure the kabu, Kakuryū stepped in. Still awaiting sources, although there's a Yahoo JP news article discussing Kakuryū's link to Otowayama in the context of Michinoku not having a successor. 

Not sure how much I trust this though, considering the amount of absolutely erroneous speculation from Japanese sources on this page alone. 

Source, for what it's worth: https://t.co/jyGTVDfZa8

Edited by Seiyashi

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