Kintamayama

Latest stock exchange news - kabu, Oyakata transfers, etc.

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5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Shimanoumi has 18 basho in Makuuchi, and at M8 with a 7-8 he'll get his 20; 8 basho in Juryo, so he'll get 30 basho as Sekitori.  If he is inheriting Izutsu, he already has enough basho to qualify anyway.

Regarding Shimanoumi's marriage to Izutsu's daughter and his possibility to inherit Izutsu, what will happen to Toyonoshima and Kakuryu? What about the ichimon?

Thank you very much

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Posted (edited)
On 13/06/2022 at 22:57, Kaitetsu said:

Hello,

If Wikipedia is to be believed, Tomozuna-oyakata (former Kaiki), has completed his 70th birthday yesterday (12/06), ending his sanyo period. Is there any information on the japanese newspapers on who is taking his kabu?

Thank you very much.

If nothing else, either Kaisei or Kyokutaisei. Probably the former since he has Japanese citizenship, and it's not unlikely that he would have taken citizenship only if he was reasonably assured of a place in the NSK after his intai.

47 minutes ago, code_number3 said:

Regarding Shimanoumi's marriage to Izutsu's daughter and his possibility to inherit Izutsu, what will happen to Toyonoshima and Kakuryu? What about the ichimon?

Thank you very much

Kakuryū will probably take over Michinoku, since Michinoku (ex-Kirishima) isn't that far from retirement and will reach 65 by the time Kakuryū's jun-toshiyori runs out. That said, if Kirishima wants to remain as sanyo then that's a different matter altogether.

I briefly touched on this last time, but looking at the list of existing kabu holders, Tatsutayama was supposed to have come free but he was offered sanyo. The next up is Tagaryū's Kagamiyama but if he is going to be offered sanyo as well then we have a problem. It's not entirely out of the question though that Shimanoumi can continue wrestling for 5 more years by which time Tatsutayama will come free for sure in time for Toyonoshima to move to it, but Tokitsukaze is going to have a kabu crunch in that time period as well.

Edited by Seiyashi
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15 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

That said, if Kirishima wants to remain as sanyo then that's a different matter altogether.

At this point, given the recent track record of the kyokai, I think we have to almost assume that every oyakata will take on the sanyo role. Especially if there is no real reason for them not to do so.

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Just now, themistyseas said:

At this point, given the recent track record of the kyokai, I think we have to almost assume that every oyakata will take on the sanyo role. Especially if there is no real reason for them not to do so.

I suspect it's a matter of how much work they're required to do.  Some might want to actually stop working at 65.

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7 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

I suspect it's a matter of how much work they're required to do.  Some might want to actually stop working at 65.

They can just load the extra assignments on Nishonoseki, he seems to have no problem taking on more and more work!!! :-D

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6 hours ago, Gurowake said:

I suspect it's a matter of how much work they're required to do.  Some might want to actually stop working at 65.

... if they can afford to.

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Posted (edited)

Shohozan intai

Any news of getting any kabu? I dont see any news on kyokai's information

 

Edited by code_number3
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23 minutes ago, code_number3 said:

Shohozan intai

Any news of getting any kabu? I dont see any news on kyokai's information

 

No, the Nikkan article makes no mention of one too.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202206220000636.html?mode=all

Guess that's a wrap then; Araiso couldn't make way for Shōhōzan or didn't want to.

Highest profile victim of a kabu crunch?

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9 hours ago, themistyseas said:
On 21/06/2022 at 15:54, Seiyashi said:

That said, if Kirishima wants to remain as sanyo then that's a different matter altogether.

At this point, given the recent track record of the kyokai, I think we have to almost assume that every oyakata will take on the sanyo role. Especially if there is no real reason for them not to do so.

Which smacks of increasing the retirement age by the back door, to be honest. I don't mind sanyo being a system to assist retaining people who have genuine outstanding contributions to make despite their age, but it shouldn't become a default expectation especially when more deserving fresh blood is being shut out.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Which smacks of increasing the retirement age by the back door, to be honest. I don't mind sanyo being a system to assist retaining people who have genuine outstanding contributions to make despite their age, but it shouldn't become a default expectation especially when more deserving fresh blood is being shut out.

I can't find it anymore now, but a year or two back I came across a scholarly article by a Japanese employment expert (can't remember if lawyer or academic) that put the sanyo system into the context of Japan-wide efforts to retain older, experienced members of the work force for longer to deal with the effects of the country's aging society, and suggested that the Kyokai's approach could serve as a model to other Japanese businesses who are still on the fence about instituting such measures. That author certainly appeared to consider it to be a general employment extension system, not just one for exceptional contributors.

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28 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I can't find it anymore now, but a year or two back I came across a scholarly article by a Japanese employment expert (can't remember if lawyer or academic) that put the sanyo system into the context of Japan-wide efforts to retain older, experienced members of the work force for longer to deal with the effects of the country's aging society, and suggested that the Kyokai's approach could serve as a model to other Japanese businesses who are still on the fence about instituting such measures. That author certainly appeared to consider it to be a general employment extension system, not just one for exceptional contributors.

Also that's an interesting point, using that strategy for elders in sumo is kinda weird as there is a strictly limited number of positions and no shortage of new candidates*. So guys like Shohozan and others listed in this thread are getting closer to 'on field' retirement with no elder stock available. And this happens to keep in place some old oyakata who most likely are highly replacable at this stage.

Let's say I'm not a fan of their choice here. But I always try to remind myself : this is not my culture.

* wichi I guess is the point of that employment strategy : keep experienced elders active because they lack younger workers at the bottom du to the decreasing birth rate ?

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Posted (edited)

Perhaps he just didn't want to be an oyakata. he could've stayed for a few more years until say, Mintatogawa reached mandatory age. Or he could've maybe took the vacant nishikijima temporarily.

 

Edited by Yokozuna Hattorizakura

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2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I can't find it anymore now, but a year or two back I came across a scholarly article by a Japanese employment expert (can't remember if lawyer or academic) that put the sanyo system into the context of Japan-wide efforts to retain older, experienced members of the work force for longer to deal with the effects of the country's aging society, and suggested that the Kyokai's approach could serve as a model to other Japanese businesses who are still on the fence about instituting such measures. That author certainly appeared to consider it to be a general employment extension system, not just one for exceptional contributors.

Also one more thing - if sanyo becomes the new normal then it throws out all our calculations in Yamanashi's Kabu-Worthy Sekitori thread by 5 years.

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I was going to post this in the Shohozan intai thread, but this is probably a better place.

If Shohozan wanted a kabu but couldn't find one, seems like we're definitely about to hit a big kabu crunch. There seems to be an expectation amongst a lot of fans that basically every makuuchi mainstay rikishi deserves a kabu: I can't imagine a majority of people actively saying "this rikishi doesn't deserve it" except for genuinely unpopular rikishi like Ryuden since his mistress/baby scandal. Even if normally they barely even notice the guy, they'd still say "it's so unfair he couldn't get a kabu!" And it probably is to be honest. People already point out when a rikishi with a not particularly high peak rank ends up becoming an elder, but then again your highest rank doesn't necessarily reflect your potential skill as an oyakata.

If sanyo becomes the default assumption once they hit 65, a lot of people are going to miss out as things are now. Seems like it's becoming more common for ex-rikishi to make 65 and 70 and the system doesn't really allow for much turnover with that. But on the other hand, if every guy who became a makuuchi mainstay acquired kabu, there'd soon be a crazy amount of oyakata. Not really sure how to balance this but it does feel a bit unfair that a former komusubi can't find a kabu, but there's some oyakata now who never even got out of juryo.

Not sure if the NSK feel like anything needs changing but I can imagine there being a lot of disappointed fans in the coming years. Should they start preferring guys with higher peak ranks over ones who peaked at mid/low maegashira or especially juryo? Should they add more kabu? Something else?

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I have a lot of questions, which maybe the esteemed lights of SumoForum may shed some light on.  These are brought to the surface by the Shohozan intai.

1) The current holders of kabu have the following highest ranks:

Y 7; O 12; S 26; K 18; M1-M8 33; M9-M16 8; J 0; vacant 1; total 105.

Would you expect that the average HR of new kabu holders will rise over the next several years?

2) Is Shohozan likely to have a danpatsu-shiki in the Kokugikan?

3) What is the level of authority (sorry, best word I could think of) that the NSK has over the passing down of toshiyori-kabu, relative to the kabu holder?  Has that changed over the last ten years or so?

4) The nominal job title of the Oyakata not running a heya or holding upper management positions seems to be "coach at [ ] stable."  How many of these don't actively coach rikishi, but hold a salary?

5) If the sanyo system becomes a mere formality, why would any 65-year-old kabu holder retire unless he is not healthy enough to come to work?

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Hidenotora said:

Not sure if the NSK feel like anything needs changing but I can imagine there being a lot of disappointed fans in the coming years. Should they start preferring guys with higher peak ranks over ones who peaked at mid/low maegashira or especially juryo? Should they add more kabu? Something else?

My two cents, they should add more kabu -- even potentially 'sanyo-only' kabu. Make that space limited so it's harder to hang on the extra 5 years rather than harder to get in at all.

Edited by Godango
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5 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

I have a lot of questions, which maybe the esteemed lights of SumoForum may shed some light on.  These are brought to the surface by the Shohozan intai.

1) The current holders of kabu have the following highest ranks:

Y 7; O 12; S 26; K 18; M1-M8 33; M9-M16 8; J 0; vacant 1; total 105.

...

Otake has a highest rank of juryo 4.

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On 21/06/2022 at 09:54, Seiyashi said:

I briefly touched on this last time, but looking at the list of existing kabu holders, Tatsutayama was supposed to have come free but he was offered sanyo. The next up is Tagaryū's Kagamiyama but if he is going to be offered sanyo as well then we have a problem. It's not entirely out of the question though that Shimanoumi can continue wrestling for 5 more years by which time Tatsutayama will come free for sure in time for Toyonoshima to move to it, but Tokitsukaze is going to have a kabu crunch in that time period as well.

On 22/06/2022 at 01:03, themistyseas said:

At this point, given the recent track record of the kyokai, I think we have to almost assume that every oyakata will take on the sanyo role. Especially if there is no real reason for them not to do so.

As I already observed in the Ajigawa-beya thread, the recent track record of the NSK to give sanyo to basically every oyakata is going to backfire on them sooner or later. If Shohozan will be really left without a kabu, this time is pretty much now.

19 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I can't find it anymore now, but a year or two back I came across a scholarly article by a Japanese employment expert (can't remember if lawyer or academic) that put the sanyo system into the context of Japan-wide efforts to retain older, experienced members of the work force for longer to deal with the effects of the country's aging society, and suggested that the Kyokai's approach could serve as a model to other Japanese businesses who are still on the fence about instituting such measures. That author certainly appeared to consider it to be a general employment extension system, not just one for exceptional contributors.

Although it's true that even sumo is suffering from an "employment issue" (I reckon there are less wrestlers in the lower divisions than once used to), the kabu system is de facto reserved to the top division veterans. It's like extending the mandate of company presidents and top administrators. That is, not really a way to keep elderly workforce (their real problem) but to hamper generational change.

Moreover, of all sports sumo is the most adaptable to a similar crisis. For one, the present six divisions are a result of a constantly growing popularity of sumo. There was a time in the 18th century when the second division was MakushitaMaakuchi included as few as 16 wrestlers (the san'yaku and maegashira up to M5), and tournaments included 10 bouts or even less. There is a lot of room to shrink down in the worst case.

A reasonable solution would be to separate sanyo and kabu. Elderly oyakata could even stay up to 70-75 years old without putting the future of younger veterans in disarray. But I came to understand to not expect good sense from the NSK (especially if putting gear back would make them to lose face).

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

3) What is the level of authority (sorry, best word I could think of) that the NSK has over the passing down of toshiyori-kabu, relative to the kabu holder?  Has that changed over the last ten years or so?

It changed considerably with the switch of the NSK to a public interest corporation 9 years ago http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/29809-nsk-new-corporate-status-hyogi-inkai-and-myoseki/

The holder can chose the successor, but can't officially sell or transfer the toshiyori myoseki to him, like it was done in the past. The NSK practically owns and manages all the stock, an evaluation committee has to acknowledge the transfer to a new holder, direct payment is forbidden, it has to be done as some consultant fee, in installments.

Edited by Akinomaki
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7 hours ago, Naganoyama said:

Otake has a highest rank of juryo 4.

Thanks, I missed him.  His record as rikishi suggests that he just made the cut for Toshiyori status, even under the previous rules (25 basho in Juryo).

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16 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

2) Is Shohozan likely to have a danpatsu-shiki in the Kokugikan?

I guess we will wait till his retirement press conference to see. I'm holding off adding him to the COVID-delayed danpatsu shiki list as of yet.

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Posted (edited)

(quote transferred from the Shohozan intai thread)

18 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

As a reason for Shohozan having to leave the NSK, the Weekly Post names a bad relation with the original shisho, ex-Wakashimazu, now Araiso. He could have tried to stay with a kabu on loan, Nishikijima and Tomozuna are vacant at the moment. As the most accomplished deshi of Wakashimazu he was thought to become the next shisho, but instead the successor is now Hanaregoma, from a different heya. For all of this the shisho has to cooperate. In 2010 Shohozan was involved in the baseball gambling scandal and nearly got expelled. Due to the efforts of the shisho, he got away with a 2 basho suspension. Wakashimazu apparently prefers Ichiyamamoto, he may get the Araiso kabu in 5 years. http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20220625_1767904.html

Also, a revealing comment from that article if true (and I personally don't doubt that it is): "The oyakata salary during the age 65-70 re-employment period equals 70% of the previous salary, totalling about 40 million ¥ across the five years. When the kabu is given up at age 65, the acquirer faces a bigger challenge because that amount will have to be covered by him [in addition to what he's paying to get the kabu in any case]."

Edited by Asashosakari
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So it's really looking more and more like a default expectation than an optional.

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23 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Also, a revealing comment from that article if true (and I personally don't doubt that it is): "The oyakata salary during the age 65-70 re-employment period equals 70% of the previous salary, totalling about 40 million ¥ across the five years. When the kabu is given up at age 65, the acquirer faces a bigger challenge because that amount will have to be covered by him [in addition to what he's paying to get the kabu in any case]."

That's ... quite a system.

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So the idea is - oyakata now retire at 70, and if you want the kabu 5 years earlier you have to pay out their remaining salary (and presumably they can still refuse, although I'd imagine the NSK has official veto over that decision I don't see why they'd act outside of the existing oyakata's wishes).

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