Kintamayama

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, Sakura said:

If I believed the Google translate of that site then 6th frontal piece Homarefuji has duties in the driving school. (Laughing...)

It is interesting to see ex-Kisenosato's position relative to his Ozeki and Yokozuna peers. Also, ex-Goeido's duties seem less generic than those of ex-Kotoshogiku, ex-Hakuho and Kakuryu.

Even accounting for the fact that ex-Kisenosato has got 4 years "head start" as an oyakata relative to Hakuhō and Kakuryu?

Seems like Hakuhō and Kakuryu are taking over Nishonoseki's old role.

Edited by Seiyashi

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1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

Even accounting for the fact that ex-Kisenosato has got 4 years "head start" as an oyakata relative to Hakuhō and Kakuryu?

Seems like Hakuhō and Kakuryu are taking over Nishonoseki's old role.

I admit that I did think of that and is probably the reason, but Naruto has only just made it to the shimpan department.

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2 hours ago, Sakura said:

If I believed the Google translate of that site then 6th frontal piece Homarefuji has duties in the driving school. (Laughing...)

It is interesting to see ex-Kisenosato's position relative to his Ozeki and Yokozuna peers. Also, ex-Goeido's duties seem less generic than those of ex-Kotoshogiku, ex-Hakuho and Kakuryu.

Kimarite judge, more like it, taking over from the former Oyama(?) oyakata.

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1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Even accounting for the fact that ex-Kisenosato has got 4 years "head start" as an oyakata relative to Hakuhō and Kakuryu?

Seems like Hakuhō and Kakuryu are taking over Nishonoseki's old role.

And ex-kotooshu’s role.

promotion to the shimpan department probably depends on the speed on establishing your heya. Methink Goeido might join it by the end of the year?

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, rhyen said:

promotion to the shimpan department probably depends on the speed on establishing your heya. Methink Goeido might join it by the end of the year?

 

1 hour ago, Sakura said:

I admit that I did think of that and is probably the reason, but Naruto has only just made it to the shimpan department.

Something else is going on here. The Nishonoseki ichimon is likely pulling strings to push Kise through the higher profile positions so that he gets the relevant exposure to be a credible rijicho candidate. His trajectory being faster than his peers who retired later is one thing, but being as fast as someone else who has retired IIRC 3 years before him is another thing altogether, even if he did retire at a higher rank.

Edited by Seiyashi
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9 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

 

Something else is going on here. The Nishonoseki ichimon is likely pulling strings to push Kise through the higher profile positions so that he gets the relevant exposure to be a credible rijicho candidate. His trajectory being faster than his peers who retired later is one thing, but being as fast as someone else who has retired IIRC 3 years before him is another thing altogether.

Even longer than that, Kotooshu retired after Haru 2014, Kisenosato retired in January of 2019.
Very interesting indeed!

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21 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

 

Something else is going on here. The Nishonoseki ichimon is likely pulling strings to push Kise through the higher profile positions so that he gets the relevant exposure to be a credible rijicho candidate. His trajectory being faster than his peers who retired later is one thing, but being as fast as someone else who has retired IIRC 3 years before him is another thing altogether, even if he did retire at a higher rank.

How different is that from Takanohana’s trajectory?

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1 minute ago, rhyen said:
22 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

 

Something else is going on here. The Nishonoseki ichimon is likely pulling strings to push Kise through the higher profile positions so that he gets the relevant exposure to be a credible rijicho candidate. His trajectory being faster than his peers who retired later is one thing, but being as fast as someone else who has retired IIRC 3 years before him is another thing altogether, even if he did retire at a higher rank.

How different is that from Takanohana’s trajectory?

Kise being short 20+ yusho? Although if EN Wikipedia is to be trusted, Takanohana made shimpan after 1 year, whereas Kise has had to wait 3, closer to the usual 4 years.

Now that you mention dai-yokozuna, it'll be interesting to see how Magaki's trajectory stacks up against Kise's.

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15 minutes ago, Hakuryuho said:
27 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Something else is going on here. The Nishonoseki ichimon is likely pulling strings to push Kise through the higher profile positions so that he gets the relevant exposure to be a credible rijicho candidate. His trajectory being faster than his peers who retired later is one thing, but being as fast as someone else who has retired IIRC 3 years before him is another thing altogether.

Even longer than that, Kotooshu retired after Haru 2014, Kisenosato retired in January of 2019.
Very interesting indeed!


I'm not sure what the problem is here, if you're referring to his place on the duties list, that's where all of the regular shimpan are, and he's at the tail end of them. As for Naruto, maybe he was happy (and competent) where he was, or simply wasn't asked until now. Being a shimpan isn't some automatic promotion that comes to every oyakata after a set period of time, and nor does every oyakata want to do the job.

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3 hours ago, Yubinhaad said:


I'm not sure what the problem is here, if you're referring to his place on the duties list, that's where all of the regular shimpan are, and he's at the tail end of them. As for Naruto, maybe he was happy (and competent) where he was, or simply wasn't asked until now. Being a shimpan isn't some automatic promotion that comes to every oyakata after a set period of time, and nor does every oyakata want to do the job.

I agree with this, and I also agree  with @Seiyashi.  Some of the oyakata apparently want to coach and train, and aren't interested in anything else.  In Naruto's case there was an incident early on which was chalked up to lack of supervision; he still has only an ex-tsukebito heya manager to help out.  However, he was previously in charge of arranging the award presentation at the end of each basho, so there's an extra-heya duty.  That chore has probably been handed over to one of the ex-Yokozuna as a timeholder.

With regard to ex-Kisenosato, it couldn't be clearer that he's the Golden Boy who will be hustled through the lower levels so that he can attain a high-level position (and eventually the top spot).  What Hak and Kak think about that is unknown, but they cannot have gone into their oyakata careers without knowing how it would play out.

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

However, he was previously in charge of arranging the award presentation at the end of each basho, so there's an extra-heya duty.  That chore has probably been handed over to one of the ex-Yokozuna as a timeholder.

Apropos of that I wonder if it is Hakuhō. I recall seeing a photo of him prepping Mitakeumi's yūshō parade car with a caption somewhat snarkily noting that he's the most familiar with it. He might have been an ad-hoc choice for that, but it wouldn't be surprising if the decision is simply taken on the basis of "eh, he's already doing this other thing..."

Edited by Seiyashi
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On 29/03/2022 at 21:04, Seiyashi said:

Might be the wrong place, but Nishonoseki (ex-Kisenosato) and Naruto (ex-Kotoōshū) oyakata are to join the shimpan department - so we will see them as ringside judges.

Reported in the Nishinippon Shimbun (headquartered in Fukuoka), morning edition.

This might mean an end to ex-Kisenosato's commenting days, as I cannot recall an oyakata serving as a ringside judge who also did a stint announcing during the same basho. 

Would love someone to prove me wrong about this though. 

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15 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Kise being short 20+ yusho? Although if EN Wikipedia is to be trusted, Takanohana made shimpan after 1 year, whereas Kise has had to wait 3, closer to the usual 4 years.

Now that you mention dai-yokozuna, it'll be interesting to see how Magaki's trajectory stacks up against Kise's.

Don’t forget that Takanohana had the added benefit on inheriting a heya instead of waiting to start a new one. If Araiso inherited the Taganoura heya, it would be a quicker promotion?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, rhyen said:
16 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Kise being short 20+ yusho? Although if EN Wikipedia is to be trusted, Takanohana made shimpan after 1 year, whereas Kise has had to wait 3, closer to the usual 4 years.

Now that you mention dai-yokozuna, it'll be interesting to see how Magaki's trajectory stacks up against Kise's.

Don’t forget that Takanohana had the added benefit on inheriting a heya instead of waiting to start a new one. If Araiso inherited the Taganoura heya, it would be a quicker promotion?

As Yubinhaad said, I don't think it has anything to do with heya ownership per se. Both Naruto and Nishonoseki had to start their own heya but Naruto's heya by now is much more established than Nishonoseki's, so I doubt the heya or the state thereof is a reliable indicia as to advancement in the NSK's hierarchy.

There may be something in that inheriting an existing heya with existing support structures frees up the inheriting oyakata to pursue hierarchical goals sooner than he would otherwise be able to, due to the logistics of having to set up a heya from scratch. But owning a heya can be (perceived by the heya owner himself as) an active detriment, as some oyakata have gone to the extreme of swapping elder names to allow another oyakata to be a shisho and take on the burden of actually running a heya - the most famous example would have been Sadanofuji, who switched his Dewanoumi elder name for Ryogoku to be rijichō.

As for Takanohana, sumo aficionados from the early 2000s will correct me on this, but I get the impression Takanohana early in his oyakata career was very much the Golden Boy thanks to his dai-yokozuna status and reforming zeal, so people were willing to accommodate him then, and the NSK was probably happy to avail itself of a chance to show it wasn't a bunch of fusty antiquarians.

Also, I think reading too much into the promotions is also a thing (mea culpa); it's more likely that some serving shimpan no longer wish to serve (or in the case of some gaffe-prone shimpan, have been the subject of intimations that they should not wish to serve), replacements have to be found, and the right people at the right time said yes. There probably is more an element of the ichimon advising ex-Kise that he ought to step up his profile, which would account for his slightly accelerated trajectory relative to his peers and senpai, but I walk back my earlier statement that strings were pulled - I don't think it goes to that extent of engineering.

It's probably the wrong question to ask immediately after disavowing Machiavellian analysis, but I wonder if and how the "balance of power" between the ichimon has shifted with the latest round of oyakata job assignments.

The next ones to watch will be Hak and Kak to see what they are content to do or be in the NSK hierarchy as much as others are content to allow them to be. Hak might well be choosing to pour his efforts in training his deshi first, as his two senior disciples have shown much improved form of late. Kakuryu probably has to worry about his long-term future first though in terms of securing a full myōseki.

Edited by Seiyashi
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Seiyashi said:
11 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

However, he was previously in charge of arranging the award presentation at the end of each basho, so there's an extra-heya duty.  That chore has probably been handed over to one of the ex-Yokozuna as a timeholder.

Apropos of that I wonder if it is Hakuhō. I recall seeing a photo of him prepping Mitakeumi's yūshō parade car with a caption somewhat snarkily noting that he's the most familiar with it. He might have been an ad-hoc choice for that, but it wouldn't be surprising if the decision is simply taken on the basis of "eh, he's already doing this other thing..."

Nishonoseki did this as press club responsible oyakata for a while after Naruto had done it for quite some time. Goeido was also attached to the press club and both now moved on, while the other 3 recent ex-y/o moved on to that level. Since writing is his thing, I guess Kakuryu will be appearing in these pics now - this was more like a farewell shot with Takekuma:

On 28/03/2022 at 17:07, Akinomaki said:

sansho - writing the list with Takekuma as assistant (successor?) of Nishonoseki
FO0-xt8acAEnmZm.jpg:thumbo FO0-xt4akAQPyKU.jpg:thumbo

Naruto instructing his successor made me think Goeido would do it next

On 02/08/2020 at 19:59, Akinomaki said:

sansho rush - Naruto and Araiso to write the list with all options

EeY4snWUwAAh1Yk.jpg:thumbo

Araiso also started with parade preparing

On 24/03/2019 at 18:46, Akinomaki said:

parade with Enho - Araiso was responsible for the preparations

D2aqZYZU8AExQRI.jpg:thumbospo1903240051-n4.jpgo spo1903240051-n3.jpgo

this was the recent one

On 24/01/2022 at 15:13, Akinomaki said:

parade prep. job for Magaki, the one with most parade experience

FJx0tr4aIAEePzu.jpg:thumbob_15006502.jpgo

Edited by Akinomaki
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No update from the NSK yet, but Oguruma-Oyakata turned 65 this week.  Considering his active role, I assume he will stay on with the Kyokai as a San'yo for the next five years.  Considering there was little fanfare about any separation, I think the assumption would be a safe bet.

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43 minutes ago, Muhomatsu said:

No update from the NSK yet, but Oguruma-Oyakata turned 65 this week.  Considering his active role, I assume he will stay on with the Kyokai as a San'yo for the next five years.  Considering there was little fanfare about any separation, I think the assumption would be a safe bet.

 

On 22/03/2022 at 11:21, Yubinhaad said:

Hochi reports that Oguruma-oyakata (former Ozeki Kotokaze) will make use of the re-employment system and stay on as sanyo after he reaches retirement age next month.

Already reported on.

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We had another 65th birthday among the Oyakata this past week.  Tatsutayama Oyakata (fomer SASSHŪNADA, out of Michinoku-beya) reached the mandatory retirement age.  Of course, he could go "sanyo", but he never really had that much of a distinguished oyakata career as I recall.  Do we know if he has left the kyokai?  Will stay on as sanyo?

 

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16 minutes ago, Muhomatsu said:

We had another 65th birthday among the Oyakata this past week.  Tatsutayama Oyakata (fomer SASSHŪNADA, out of Michinoku-beya) reached the mandatory retirement age.  Of course, he could go "sanyo", but he never really had that much of a distinguished oyakata career as I recall.  Do we know if he has left the kyokai?  Will stay on as sanyo?

 

Highest probability: Kakuryū assumes that stock, at least temporarily. Smooths the road for him to take over Michinoku since there'll now be another proper kabu for Michinoku himself to go sanyo into.

Sasshūnada never was a stablemaster, so the odds that he stays as a consultant are pretty low since I understand (mayhaps wrongly) that only former stablemasters are extended that courtesy.

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Being a former stablemaster is not a requirement.  Ōyama and Minatogawa were not stable masters but are sanyo.  I think you still have to have some sort of special contributions to the kyokai.  I know Ōyama worked a lot on kimarite (and maybe the sumo school).  I think Minatogawa also served on a special board or committee at some point - something that was outside the normal oyakata hierarchy, as I recall.  I suppose Tatsutayama could qualify, but his "undistinguished" oyakata career (at least I do not recall much distinction) could mean he does not stay on.

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For whatever it's worth as a measure of "distinction", in the last 8 years, Tatsutayama has only been mentioned in this forum due to the following:

- Speculation about his kabu's future. (Quite on topic here.)
- Minimal pre-basho PR duties in Nagoya for three or four years. I'll just assume he's from there.
- @Chojin getting his signature in Kyushu '18.

Yep, undistinguished.

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4 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Tatsutayama-oyakata stays on as sanyo. (Applauding...)

So I guess this is a bit of a hint that courtesy is extended to all oyakata by default, unless those in charge decide there's something particularly aggrieving or upsetting about their presence that wouldn't otherwise justify a forced retirement.

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2 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

So I guess this is a bit of a hint that courtesy is extended to all oyakata by default, unless those in charge decide there's something particularly aggrieving or upsetting about their presence that wouldn't otherwise justify a forced retirement.

I always perceived that oyakata decide for themselves whether they want to continue or not.... regardless of their former role or position.

Let's not forget a sanyo is also cheaper in salary than a regular employed oyakata, so it's probably in the NSK's financial interest as well.

Regarding kabu succesion I would rather calculate with 70 than 65 years as retirement age from now on. Even ill-healthed guys like Araiso and Oguruma stay on ... I expected them to go into well deserved retirement, but no.

I voiced this once before: I am rather surprised that the rikishi-kai has never addressed this important topic because it makes career planning after intai severely complicated and puts more guys on hot seats than neccessary. 

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Hello,

If Wikipedia is to be believed, Tomozuna-oyakata (former Kaiki), has completed his 70th birthday yesterday (12/06), ending his sanyo period. Is there any information on the japanese newspapers on who is taking his kabu?

Thank you very much.

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