Latest stock exchange news - kabu, Oyakata transfers, etc.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

On 09/06/2021 at 05:49, Asashosakari said:

Was it? The original news merely said that Hakuho was in the process of acquiring the share. I don't recall any official statement that it had been approved. The NSK isn't in the habit of announcing that for share deals involving active rikishi anyway - I'm actually not sure if there's a mechanism for that in the first place.

Ha. Good call. I went and dug around a bit and some really interesting bits have turned up.

First up, yes - Hochi does report Hakuho as being in the process of acquiring Magaki rather than having acquired - so my bad here for assuming that it was in fact a done deal as reflected in the DB as of 10 March.

https://hochi.news/articles/20210310-OHT1T50420.html

The more extensive post on it however comes from a news outlet that looks a bit tabloidish, but will have to serve in a pinch:

https://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20210323_1644892.html?DETAIL

Firstly, they note, as you have, that an announcement of impending acquisition is different from actual acquisition and it is a little weird or unusual. They at least quote conflicting sources amongst the tanimachi and koenkai which disagree whether the stock going off ichimon will be sanctioned or not.

Second, they note that while Magaki was last used by the Tokitsukaze ichimon and by ex-Tokitsuumi, the circumstances of his departure and Hakuho's purchasing power makes it possible for the kabu to go cross-ichimon. (NB: My guess is that it doesn't hurt that Magaki hasn't always been in the Tokitsukaze ichimon.) Toyonoshima, being from Tokitsukaze, is said to have been interested in the Magaki stock for when Kakuryu eventually takes up the Izutsu stock, but he just doesn't have the moolah to outbid Hakuho for it.

The more important bits are these though - figures of 100-300 million yen are being thrown around as prices for elder stock, in the form of things like advisory fees and guidance fees (not clear if this is independent of heya or inclusive of heya). The current market price is apparently 200 million yen. So it seems that the rule changes haven't really changed that much after all, other than serving as a temporary audit (see Wakanohana II below). As I surmised earlier, we are in a vicious cycle where the current kabu holders don't want to be out of pocket because of the change and hence money is still changing hands for the kabu.

Now the interesting trivia - what's with Hakuho and "cursed"/"jinxed" things? First Shiranui, and now Magaki - the article notes that none of the 8 oyakata who took up Magaki post-war served till retirement. That's easyish to verify via the DB (although I see 9, but they may just not have counted Tosayutaka who was the only one of the lot to not end his oyakata career with Magaki):

• Taikyuzan - retired at 42, continued to hold the kabu till 50
• Akisegawa (loaner) - retired at 33
• Shinanogawa (loaner) - retired at 39
• Shimizugawa - died at 52 of cirrhosis
• Arase - retired at 36! Ex-sekiwake too, so not that low down the totem pole to be asked to retire for someone else, unless he really needed the money.
• Wakanohana II - retired at 60, but had to shut down the stable earlier due to a brain haemorrhage, and apparently couldn't submit the kabu certificate in 2011 for verification, implying that he had put it up as collateral for something. The early closure of his stable, while plausibly due to ill-health, could also have been partially related to this misuse of kabu.
• Tokitenku - died at 38 of lymphoma
• Tosayutaka - took up Tokitsukaze, still active
• Tokitsuumi - forced to swap to Magaki and then retire at 48, after his COVID-related breaches.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Seiyashi

[Seiyashi 4,071]

Asahisho of Tomozuna retires and takes up the Kiriyama kabu in Isegahama ichimon. That puts paid to my previous theory that Kaisei/Takarafuji was the destined holder of Kiriyama, at least in the short to medium term.

That leaves the only currently vacant kabu as Kasugayama (Ikioi), Sanoyama (Chiyootori) and Magaki (Hakuho), all of which may be filled imminently by their holding rikishi.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Seiyashi

[rhyen 1,809]

43 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

Asahisho of Tomozuna retires and takes up the Kiriyama kabu in Isegahama ichimon. That puts paid to my previous theory that Kaisei/Takarafuji was the destined holder of Kiriyama, at least in the short to medium term.

That leaves the only currently vacant kabu as Kasugayama (Ikioi), Sanoyama (Chiyootori) and Magaki (Hakuho), all of which may be filled imminently by their holding rikishi.

So he is the actual owner and not a borrower/loanee?

[Seiyashi 4,071]

2 hours ago, rhyen said:

So he is the actual owner and not a borrower/loanee?

Not sure at this point. He is currently titled Kiriyama oyakata, is all that can be said based on the NSK oshirase.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Seiyashi

[rhyen 1,809]

I supposed the easiest way is to see if he is ranked above the other borrowers like Sadanofuji 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Puzzling update of the Kyokai's duty list page, where they've changed Sadanofuji's name now and already same-day dumped Nishikijima, but the kabu assumptions of Toyohibiki and Asahisho aren't reflected yet (even though one of those is even connected to Sadanofuji's change).

 

[Tamanaogijima 741]

21 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Puzzling update of the Kyokai's duty list page, where they've changed Sadanofuji's name now and already same-day dumped Nishikijima, but the kabu assumptions of Toyohibiki and Asahisho aren't reflected yet (even though one of those is even connected to Sadanofuji's change).

 

Noticed the same after the retirement of Kotoyuki, which was also in the mid of an even month. Too late to be removed from the (printed) banzuke and so still listed as rikishi in the next basho. I guess they cannot or want not to have them on their site as both rikishi and oyakata, as it would create the appearance of a nimai-kansatsu. Sadanofuji and Nishikijima are an oyakata-only changes that does not make the person appear twice.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

18 hours ago, Tamanaogijima said:

Noticed the same after the retirement of Kotoyuki, which was also in the mid of an even month. Too late to be removed from the (printed) banzuke and so still listed as rikishi in the next basho. I guess they cannot or want not to have them on their site as both rikishi and oyakata, as it would create the appearance of a nimai-kansatsu. Sadanofuji and Nishikijima are an oyakata-only changes that does not make the person appear twice.

I must admit my own speculated explanation is much more profane and centers around them just taking their sweet time to verify that the new oyakata are actually in possession of the toshiyori certificate. 

[Seiyashi 4,071]

35 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I must admit my own speculated explanation is much more profane and centers around them just taking their sweet time to verify that the new oyakata are actually in possession of the toshiyori certificate. 

Did you mean prosaic? I can't see how that explanation is blasphemous in any way 

And speaking of prosaic, I've got a dumb question - is there a reason why rikishi who retire in the middle of an even month isn't simply just blanked out on the banzuke instead? To my mind, as long as the banzuke hasn't actually been printed for distribution, it's not too late - although I do realise I don't know when exactly the banzuke is readied and how long it's embargoed for.

[Benihana 1,901]

2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Did you mean prosaic? I can't see how that explanation is blasphemous in any way 

And speaking of prosaic, I've got a dumb question - is there a reason why rikishi who retire in the middle of an even month isn't simply just blanked out on the banzuke instead? To my mind, as long as the banzuke hasn't actually been printed for distribution, it's not too late - although I do realise I don't know when exactly the banzuke is readied and how long it's embargoed for.

The banzuke isn't just a computer print. It's handwritten by highly trained gyoji. This is a delicate, time consuming process. If they mess it up, there's no liquid paper, they have to do it again. They won't rewrite it, after they are finally done with it. That's one answer to your question. Another answer could probably be "tradition".

There is a thread regarding banzuke writing on this forum, but i can't find it, maybe someone else can help.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Benihana

[Asashosakari 18,786]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Did you mean prosaic? I can't see how that explanation is blasphemous in any way 

And speaking of prosaic, I've got a dumb question - is there a reason why rikishi who retire in the middle of an even month isn't simply just blanked out on the banzuke instead? To my mind, as long as the banzuke hasn't actually been printed for distribution, it's not too late - although I do realise I don't know when exactly the banzuke is readied and how long it's embargoed for.

Profane in the sense that "papers need to be presented first" wouldn't be a unique "sumo reason", just a simple administrative matter the likes of which could be found anywhere. I do suppose prosaic fits as well.

In general blank spots probably aren't desirable both for aesthetic reasons (on the printed banzuke) and because they kind of create more questions than they resolve, in a "there is something we can't show you" way.

However, and this is strictly speculation on my part, I kind of think they did used to let people retire between basho some decades ago, and removed them from an already-drafted banzuke - but covering for it by shifting up everybody else in the division, not by leaving blanks. For some years after the makushita capacity was set at 120, the actual size of the division frequently fell a bit short, and a lot of those shortages appear to correspond to retirements by rikishi who completed the previous tournament and would have held a makushita rank without their intai.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Asashosakari
between, not mid

[Yamanashi 3,724]

1 hour ago, Benihana said:

Another answer could probably be "tradition".

"Who spends their days a-brushing on the washi, forming thicker kanji, lining up the rows; and who holds the gunbai, watching for the stepout, making sure they always bow ... the gyoji, the gyoji,  uhhhhhh TRADITION!"

[Tamanaogijima 741]

4 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Did you mean prosaic? I can't see how that explanation is blasphemous in any way 

And speaking of prosaic, I've got a dumb question - is there a reason why rikishi who retire in the middle of an even month isn't simply just blanked out on the banzuke instead? To my mind, as long as the banzuke hasn't actually been printed for distribution, it's not too late - although I do realise I don't know when exactly the banzuke is readied and how long it's embargoed for.

 

Le Monde du Sumo had a article about how to read a banzuke; the first paragraphs also tell you how it is written. Generally speaking, there are usually eight (or nine) weeks between the banzuke announcements that are split equally into four parts: 2 weeks between announcement and basho start, 2 weeks of basho, 2 weeks of setting new ranks and writing the banzuke (indeed still done by hand today, and always by the same man - usually a juryo or makuuchi gyoji, who gives up the duty when promoted to sanyaku - at present it is only the ninth man since 1927) and finally 2 weeks of printing and distributing to the heya.

So technically it would be possible up to the ca. 15th of an even month to blank out people, but as Asashosakari said, that is today rather done as a "last punishment" to a dismissed person and not to a run-of-the-mill intaier that has just picked the wrong date.

 

[Yamanashi 3,724]

I count about 20 current rikishi who have the following qualifications:

1) 30 yrs or older.

2) Have or probably will have the combination of Makuuchi and Juryo basho to make the cut for a kabu.

3) Not already listed as owning a kabu

(6 of these are non-Japanese and may not be interested.)  There are a lot of eligible candidates with reduced shelf-life, and few slots available.  Is this typical?

[Asashosakari 18,786]

I don't think it's unusual for the last couple of decades. A quick count of eligible rikishi born before 1981 on the Hatsu 2011 banzuke shows 21 including one unnaturalized foreigner, of whom 8 were owning a kabu at the time - and zero shares were unoccupied then, compared to the current four.

Breakdown of the 21:

Owned a kabu and took it up eventually (7) - Aminishiki, Futeno, Kaio, Takamisakari, Takekaze, Tochinonada, Wakanosato
No kabu at the time, but became oyakata later (7) - Bushuyama, Hokutoriki, Kakizoe, Kyokutenho, Miyabiyama, Tamanoshima, Tokitenku (had to naturalize first)

The rest were all ousted in the yaocho scandal a few months later:

Owned a kabu and didn't get to take it up (1) - Shimotori
No kabu at any time (6) - Asofuji, Jumonji, Kasuganishiki, Kasugao, Kyokunankai, Toyozakura

A crucial factor, however, 16 shares were set to become available within the next 3 years back in 2011 (not counting those vacated additionally due to the scandal). Right now it's just 10 minus however many of them end up staying to age 70, plus two who are currently in the five-year extension and will turn 70 soon. All things considered, though, things were definitely tight back then, too, before the yaocho dismissals took a lot of pressure out of the system for a few years.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

18 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

All things considered, though, things were definitely tight back then, too, before the yaocho dismissals took a lot of pressure out of the system for a few years.

So what you're saying is, we need a few more daft chaps to get caught breaching COVID guidelines repeatedly.... 

The question that interests me here is whether all sanyaku rikishi are expected to stay with the NSK after retirement. If so, considering the number of junior sanyaku, that's not very many shares left per generation of rikishi for maegashira/juryo. Anyone have a rough idea which/how many high profile sanyaku wrestlers didn't stay with the NSK? I know there was minor hubbub over Mainoumi not staying after retirement, and I know one of the Oshima rikishi went into politics and business, but I'm not sure if there are very many others.

Edited June 17, 2021 by Seiyashi

[ryafuji 807]

19 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

So what you're saying is, we need a few more daft chaps to get caught breaching COVID guidelines repeatedly.... 

The question that interests me here is whether all sanyaku rikishi are expected to stay with the NSK after retirement. If so, considering the number of junior sanyaku, that's not very many shares left per generation of rikishi for maegashira/juryo. Anyone have a rough idea which/how many high profile sanyaku wrestlers didn't stay with the NSK? I know there was minor hubbub over Mainoumi not staying after retirement, and I know one of the Oshima rikishi went into politics and business, but I'm not sure if there are very many others.

That would be Kyokudozan. Ex-sekiwake Hayateumi went into politics too, although he had a rather brief and injury plagued career so I don't know if he fits your definition of high-profile. Takanowaka was another sekiwake who didn't stay. 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

20 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

The question that interests me here is whether all sanyaku rikishi are expected to stay with the NSK after retirement. If so, considering the number of junior sanyaku, that's not very many shares left per generation of rikishi for maegashira/juryo.

It has to be said that rikishi who never even got a single sanyaku appearance are typically the greyest of the grey and their careers are quickly forgotten, so in a sense it's not an issue (for the Kyokai, at least) if most of those guys don't get to be oyakata. Of course one can debate whether it's actually sensible that the sport is only run by former practitioners, but as long as that's mandatory it's arguably good that those who make it into the club have some name recognition. And my impression is that if one of those faceless maegashira does exhibit a good sumo brain for coaching or management, the sumo world will often find a way for them to stay, too.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

45 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

It has to be said that rikishi who never even got a single sanyaku appearance are typically the greyest of the grey and their careers are quickly forgotten, so in a sense it's not an issue (for the Kyokai, at least) if most of those guys don't get to be oyakata. Of course one can debate whether it's actually sensible that the sport is only run by former practitioners, but as long as that's mandatory it's arguably good that those who make it into the club have some name recognition. And my impression is that if one of those faceless maegashira does exhibit a good sumo brain for coaching or management, the sumo world will often find a way for them to stay, too.

Based on a quick look via Wikipedia, about 60% of the current elders are ex-sanyaku, about 30% are joi, and maybe like 10% or so who are double-digit maegashira (and one Juryo 4 Dairyu, but that's probably excusable given it's Otake and Taiho wasn't exactly swimming in choices to take over). So that shakes out roughly, I think. It's more difficult to find out which are the ex-sanyaku who didn't stay in the NSK rather than who did, and if those are the vanishing minority as with the double-digit hiramaku who stay in the NSK.

[ryafuji 807]

1 hour ago, Seiyashi said:

Based on a quick look via Wikipedia, about 60% of the current elders are ex-sanyaku, about 30% are joi, and maybe like 10% or so who are double-digit maegashira (and one Juryo 4 Dairyu, but that's probably excusable given it's Otake and Taiho wasn't exactly swimming in choices to take over). So that shakes out roughly, I think. It's more difficult to find out which are the ex-sanyaku who didn't stay in the NSK rather than who did, and if those are the vanishing minority as with the double-digit hiramaku who stay in the NSK.

Among the list of sekiwake in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier I can see Maedagawa, Iwakaze, Tochiakagi, Kaneshiro, Ho-o, and Aran. (Kaneshiro and Aran did not meet the citizenship requirement.) Among komusubi as well as those who weren't  kicked out or otherwise ineligible there's Itai,  Tamaryu, Tomoefuji, Naminohana, Chiyotenzan... most of those guyes were only in sanyaku for a couple of tournaments. 

[Kintamayama 44,353]

24 minutes ago, ryafuji said:

Among komusubi as well as those who weren't  kicked out or otherwise ineligible there's Itai,  

Pretty obvious why, being the whistleblower and all..

Edited June 17, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Kaminariyuki 497]

31 minutes ago, Kintamayama said:

Pretty obvious why, being the whistleblower and all..

As a newish sumo fan, it's always disheartening to encounter some of this history. I will be rather disappointed if it is ever revealed that this sort of thing is still going on. I admire you folks who roughed it through that period as fans and participants, as I suspect I might throw in the towel and go back to watching college basketball. Not that it's never had the same sort of scandals in the past, but t's always been a particular team or player rather than a widespread phenomenon.

[Kaminariyuki 497]

On 13/06/2021 at 10:41, Benihana said:

The banzuke isn't just a computer print. It's handwritten by highly trained gyoji. This is a delicate, time consuming process. If they mess it up, there's no liquid paper, they have to do it again. They won't rewrite it, after they are finally done with it. That's one answer to your question. Another answer could probably be "tradition".

There is a thread regarding banzuke writing on this forum, but i can't find it, maybe someone else can help.

I've learned so much here on Sumo Forum. Thanks to all of you for being here. But when I look back in the archives, I'm floored by some of what I find. This isn't the thread you were talking about, I don't think, but nonetheless:

 

And, here is an interesting thread on calligraphy and fonts used in sumo:

Now, it's time to go practice kanji...

 

[ryafuji 807]

4 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

Pretty obvious why, being the whistleblower and all..

Well, he didn't start blowing the whistle until several years after he left. 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

7 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Based on a quick look via Wikipedia, about 60% of the current elders are ex-sanyaku, about 30% are joi, and maybe like 10% or so who are double-digit maegashira (and one Juryo 4 Dairyu, but that's probably excusable given it's Otake and Taiho wasn't exactly swimming in choices to take over).

Dairyu still qualified under older regulations where 25 juryo tournaments were sufficient to become oyakata (or 20 consecutive basho in juryo, or one, yes, one basho in makuuchi). The current standards came in a year after his retirement. He wasn't expected to take over Taiho/Otake-beya in any case, that only came about due to Takatoriki's involuntary exit.