Latest stock exchange news - kabu, Oyakata transfers, etc.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

6 minutes ago, fwuzzle23 said:

The kabu switches are when it's a stablemaster retiring, so they don't have to rename the entire stable in the succession process. Any kabu can theoretically be used by sanyo, but obviously there's going to be more effort put into making sure the more prestigious ones aren't used for that purpose.

Ah, ok I see, thanks. 

It is still reasonable that Hakuho would acquire Magaki, swap with old Miyagino upon his imminent retirement, and then be new Miyagino, if the ichidai toshiyori doesn't come through, or he suddenly changed his mind about the ichidai. I don't think someone that has achieved as much as he has would take the random name 'Magaki' - even if the former yokozuna Wakanohana II once occupied the position. 

[pricklypomegranate 730]

4 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

From the thread on Azumazeki-beya possibly closing, I'm moving it here because my query below has nothing to do with that:

Since discussion elsewhere prompted me to look up the actual regulations again, I should add that the Kyokai by-laws (since the 2014 organizational changes) state that retiring oyakata have five years to recommend their desired successor for the kabu. I don't believe we've seen any kabu actually go beyond the old three-year limit without a new permanent holder since then, though, have we?

(And the regulation in question specifically only mentions retiring oyakata, so that leaves plenty of other scenarios. Does anybody buy that either ex-Tosayutaka or ex-Tokitsuumi "recommended" Hakuho here?)

I understand that Yokozuna and Ozeki have a 5 and 3 year grace period respectively. However, as we've seen in the case of Kisenosato and Goeido, they did not take this up even though they had didn't own/reserve a kabu. Goiedo's case is even more damning because he poached his off ichimon. So that implies to me that there is a certain disadvantage to using the grace period - perhaps something that Hakuho does not want to be restricted by should he retire before Miyagino is forced to vacate his kabu next year. 

I've been thinking about the theories again and the one thing I know for sure is that Hakuho is doing this for an additional safety net. But there could be supplementary reasons for making this move as well: 

For one, the theory that Hakuho did this to help Toyonoshima doesn't really make sense. After Tosayutaka, the previous kabu holder, vacated to take Tokitsukaze, presumably, Toyonoshima would be the successor. However, Hakuho getting first dibs on this as Yokozuna actually puts him in a more precarious position, especially with Kakuryu's intai becoming closer and closer. Also, the theory that he did this to secure Miyagino's sanyo position is somewhat flawed. We have four sanyo retiring next year, so why can't Miyagino take that instead? He would be forced to vacate the existing kabu, and with no other eligible successors, Hakuho would definitely get it - and would have no reason to acquire another kabu, especially one he had no connection with and wasn't a particularly well run heya in its last iteration, for someone with such accomplishment. 

The only reasons that make sense to me are, there is some disadvantage to Hakuho using his grace period, should he retire before Miyagino offers up his kabu and not have Magaki or that he was asked by his ichimon to reclaim the kabu which originally belonged to them, in addition to having that increased security himself or of course, both. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Raishu 207]

2 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I understand that Yokozuna and Ozeki have a 5 and 3 year grace period respectively. However, as we've seen in the case of Kisenosato and Goeido, they did not take this up even though they had didn't own/reserve a kabu. Goiedo's case is even more damning because he poached his off ichimon. So that implies to me that there is a certain disadvantage to using the grace period - perhaps something that Hakuho does not want to be restricted by should he retire before Miyagino is forced to vacate his kabu next year. 

[...]

Well, as long as you use your grace period (3 or 5 years - it won't matter), you are not able to move up the rankings as a coach, since you are basically not "on the banzuke".

At least, this is what I read out of the following statement on grace periods for Ozeki and Yokozuna:

The former top rankers have never been counted to the official spots and also didn't appear on the banzuke as Jun toshiyori but as the highest ranked Toshiyori.

This can be found here: http://oyakata.seisa.de/oya_howto.html

Correct me, if I am wrong.

--------------------------------------

Generally, picking up Magaki is a smart move by Hakuho. Owning a kabu (and not using it) still means one thing: (political) control! As an ichidai-toshiyori he can equip a retired rikishi with Magaki and theoretically earn a safe vote for elections. Further, this oyakata might move into his stable and support him as an assistant, as we have seen it with former-Kobo back then (after he had decided to vote against the ichimons candidate and picked up Futagoyama (owned by Takanohana) - heya switch included).

[Asashosakari 18,786]

6 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

Also, re: Kitanoumi and Takanohana - to be fair, they were a couple of yusho above the ichidai requirement, and thus would be reasonable to think that they wouldn't have this honour.

What ichidai "requirement"? Leaving aside that Kitanoumi had the second-most tournament wins in history at the time...

 

5 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I don't think someone that has achieved as much as he has would take the random name 'Magaki' - even if the former yokozuna Wakanohana II once occupied the position. 

His idol Futabayama famously proclaimed, "All the toshiyori are the same" when he took on the then relatively low-prestige Tokitsukaze name.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,786]

2 hours ago, Raishu said:

Well, as long as you use your grace period (3 or 5 years - it won't matter), you are not able to move up the rankings as a coach, since you are basically not "on the banzuke".

At least, this is what I read out of the following statement on grace periods for Ozeki and Yokozuna:

The former top rankers have never been counted to the official spots and also didn't appear on the banzuke as Jun toshiyori but as the highest ranked Toshiyori.

This can be found here: http://oyakata.seisa.de/oya_howto.html

Correct me, if I am wrong.

Yeah, that's not right. "Not counted to the official spots" simply means that yokozuna/ozeki on a grace period didn't take spots away from the 10 / 5 jun-toshiyori that were available to lesser rikishi. It's also not meant to say that they weren't on the banzuke at all, but rather the opposite: Instead of having to slum at the bottom of the list with the "proper" jun-toshiyori (or with kabu-on-loan guys nowadays), Y/O were listed higher up even though their grace period was functionally a jun-toshiyori system as well.
 

2 hours ago, Raishu said:

Generally, picking up Magaki is a smart move by Hakuho. Owning a kabu (and not using it) still means one thing: (political) control! As an ichidai-toshiyori he can equip a retired rikishi with Magaki and theoretically earn a safe vote for elections. Further, this oyakata might move into his stable and support him as an assistant, as we have seen it with former-Kobo back then (after he had decided to vote against the ichimons candidate and picked up Futagoyama (owned by Takanohana) - heya switch included).

I'm not sure if holding both ichidai + regular toshiyori is still allowed after the 2014 changes. He may have to get rid of Magaki again, perhaps within the previously-mentioned 5-year succession nomination period.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Asashosakari

[pricklypomegranate 730]

15 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

What ichidai "requirement"? Leaving aside that Kitanoumi had the second-most tournament wins in history at the time...

His idol Futabayama famously proclaimed, "All the toshiyori are the same" when he took on the then relatively low-prestige Tokitsukaze name.

20 yusho ichidai requirement - it can be safe to say that Hakuho's yushos blows Kitanoumi's out of the water. And just because his idol said that, doesn't mean he actually believes that. I don't think Hakuho would join a cult and fight police either - he's a very pragmatic man and it shows in his sumo. I do certainly believe he will take Magaki for practical reasons. 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

9 minutes ago, pricklypomegranate said:

20 yusho ichidai requirement

 Then I'll need to be more blunt: There has never been any actual requirement, neither when Taiho got the first one, nor today. 
 

Quote

it can be safe to say that Hakuho's yushos blows Kitanoumi's out of the water.

I have no idea what relevance this statement is supposed to have. You do understand that it's pointless to judge the decision around Kitanoumi's ichidai award by what has happened in the 36 years since it took place?

Edited March 11, 2021 by Asashosakari

[pricklypomegranate 730]

18 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

 Then I'll need to be more blunt: There has never been any actual requirement, neither when Taiho got the first one, nor today. 
I have no idea what relevance this statement is supposed to have. You do understand that it's pointless to judge the decision around Kitanoumi's ichidai award by what has happened in the 36 years since it took place?

Basically, what I am saying is, I felt that Hakuho suddenly acquiring Magaki was quite surprising to me because it seems rather redundant. For one, Kitanoumi, who only won 4 more than the 20-yusho toshiyori requirement (however unofficial it may be) would be more unsure about whether he'd be offered the honour in his late career, than someone who has more than doubled the requirements at the end of his, despite his controversial behaviour - so to me, it is certainly more odd for him to secure a kabu than Kitanoumi, who knew he might be on his last legs between yusho 19 - 24. Applies to Takanohana as well. I understand why they would secure a kabu when they just got over the 20-yusho mark, as compared to someone who had no use for it until he became a Japanese very recently, and who has certainly well exceeded the requirement. Two, even if Hakuho doesn't get the ichidai, his shisho would be forced to give it to him due to his age and the lack of any other eligible successors. Thus, to me, gaining another kabu indicates that there he wants to avoid using the grace period, for whatever reason, or because his ichimon want to reclaim it, or because he wants additional political power in addition to a safety net. That's basically what I am thinking. 

Edited March 11, 2021 by pricklypomegranate

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Jesus. Evidently assessing historical events in their historical context is too much to ask.

Kitanoumi was considered so important to sumo at the time that the power-that-be had asked him to stay active until the opening of the new Ryogoku Kokugikan in 1985. By all accounts he was ready to retire much earlier than that. You seriously believe that guy had to worry about getting snubbed?

Here's a much more simple explanation for why both Kitanoumi and Hakuho picked up a regular share pre-retirement: They did it to show that they didn't/don't feel themselves entitled to an ichidai-toshiyori. It's Japan, appearances matter.

[pricklypomegranate 730]

Just now, Asashosakari said:

Jesus. Evidently assessing historical events in their historical context is too much to ask.

Kitanoumi was considered so important to sumo at the time that the power-that-be had asked him to stay active until the opening of the new Ryogoku Kokugikan in 1985. By all accounts he was ready to retire much earlier than that. You seriously believe that guy had to worry about getting snubbed?

Here's a much more simple explanation for why both Kitanoumi and Hakuho picked up a regular share pre-retirement: They did it to show that they didn't/don't feel themselves entitled to an ichidai-toshiyori. It's Japan, appearances matter.

But Kitanoumi's and Hakuho's context are fundamentally different. Kitanoumi did not have a shisho that was imminently going to retire. If Hakuho were to keep up appearances and show that he wasn't angling for ichidai, why didn't he just do nothing, because Miyagino's about to retire? To me, it seems like there is another reason. 

[themistyseas 226]

8 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

I understand that Yokozuna and Ozeki have a 5 and 3 year grace period respectively. However, as we've seen in the case of Kisenosato and Goeido, they did not take this up even though they had didn't own/reserve a kabu.

Kisenosato owned his myoseki for almost ten years before his intai. There was literally no reason for him to ever take it up.

2 hours ago, pricklypomegranate said:

If Hakuho were to keep up appearances and show that he wasn't angling for ichidai, why didn't he just do nothing, because Miyagino's about to retire?

I think this is pretty clear: The ichidai-toshiyori status must be offered, there is no guarantee. Per Asashosakari's comment, the decisions are made contextually and by humans. It is a status conferred on a yokozuna of exceptional achievement, an achievement that is judged. And as stated above it is also important to (symbolically or otherwise) show deference to the establishment.

We also know that Hakuho has a very strong awareness and perception of loyalty. So I think it's fairly useful that he's bought an insurance policy in the event that he is not offered the ichidai toshiyori for any reason. It gives him options. If he gets it, he can sell Magaki off (as Takanohana was eventually forced to do after the rule change). If he doesn't get it or doesn't want it, then he has an opportunity to swap with Miyagino to allow him to continue as coach. Or of course he can use it over the shorter or longer term to help those to whom he has loyalties (either Toyonoshima as some have speculated here, or eventually a retiring rikishi in his own stable/ichimon like perhaps an Ishiura). Maybe, because he's canny, he's used an opportunity to get another vote into his ichimon over the long term! Who knows.

Edited March 11, 2021 by themistyseas

[pricklypomegranate 730]

27 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

Kisenosato owned his myoseki for almost ten years before his intai. There was literally no reason for him to ever take it up.

I think this is pretty clear: The ichidai-toshiyori status must be offered, there is no guarantee. Per Asashosakari's comment, the decisions are made contextually and by humans. It is a status conferred on a yokozuna of exceptional achievement, an achievement that is judged. And as stated above it is also important to (symbolically or otherwise) show deference to the establishment.

We also know that Hakuho has a very strong awareness and perception of loyalty. So I think it's fairly useful that he's bought an insurance policy in the event that he is not offered the ichidai toshiyori for any reason. It gives him options. If he gets it, he can sell Magaki off (as Takanohana was eventually forced to do after the rule change). If he doesn't get it or doesn't want it, then he has an opportunity to swap with Miyagino to allow him to continue as coach. Or of course he can use it over the shorter or longer term to help those to whom he has loyalties (either Toyonoshima as some have speculated here, or eventually a retiring rikishi in his own stable/ichimon like perhaps an Ishiura). Maybe, because he's canny, he's used an opportunity to get another vote into his ichimon over the long term! Who knows.

Indeed, who knows. I am very interested to see how this pans out - but it does not seem to me, as it does to you, that Hakuho acquired Magaki simply to keep up appearances. 

[Churaumi 728]

This is all assuming Hakuho even wants ichidai toshiyori status. I'm behind the curve on this, but has he ever expressed a hint of desire for it? I can't believe he'd turn it down, but he might have his reasons to put the Hakuho name and identity to bed after his last trip down the hanamichi. Especially since he waited so very long to get his citizenship papers.

[Kamitsuumi 384]

1 hour ago, Churaumi said:

he might have his reasons to put the Hakuho name and identity to bed after his last trip down the hanamichi

Probably shouldn't have made that his legal name then.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,247]

28 minutes ago, Kamitsuumi said:

Probably shouldn't have made that his legal name then.

Him using Hakuho as his legal name could just be the ease of operating in Japan. Long katakana names have a habit of not fitting into forms, on hanko, on hopsital cards, credit cards. When there is a mismatch because your name has been unceremoniously shortened on a card it can be quite painful if the clerk you're working with is having a bad day.

If its his legal name anyway, even less need to make it his oyakata name. Establishing a connection with a kabu this early also avoids having the JSA have innumerable meetings about granting ichidai toshiyori status and I am sure they are a little grateful to avoid that heartburn. Maybe they'll try to do it anyway but I'm not sure if there is or not precedent.

[Akinomaki 39,790]

Kyokai no.2. Oguruma-oyakata has taken on the jobs of head of crisis management and head of compliance from Kagamiyama-oyakata, in addition to his other jobs. http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/20210312/sum21031220410011-n1.html

already listed in the job list http://www.sumo.or.jp/IrohaKyokai/rijikai

Edited March 12, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Raishu 207]

Any reasons given?

I am not following these job chances very closely, but going by recent years, a takeover often happened due to health reasons IIRC. I hope Kagamiyama is fine.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Could this perhaps be merged into the kabu thread where this information has traditionally been posted?

(Which reminds me that I never got around to doing the usual summary of post-election changes last year...somewhere I still have the data laying around, I'm sure.)

Edited March 12, 2021 by Jakusotsu
Done.

[Akinomaki 39,790]

On 12/03/2021 at 16:41, Raishu said:

Any reasons given?

I am not following these job chances very closely, but going by recent years, a takeover often happened due to health reasons IIRC. I hope Kagamiyama is fine.

Today's article gives poor health of Kagamiyama as the reason. Oguruma intends this to be the last official duty. http://www.daily.co.jp/general/2021/03/13/0014148261.shtml

Edited March 13, 2021 by Akinomaki

[Yubinhaad 11,546]

On 23/02/2021 at 15:55, Akinomaki said:

Due to the oyakata turning 65 in May, Minezaki-beya disappears after the Haru basho, the 7 rikishi move to same Nishonoseki-ichimon Shibatayama-beya.

The five remaining rikishi have transferred to Shibatayama-beya as of today, along with Minezaki-oyakata (former Maegashira Misugiiso) and Makuuchi gyoji Kimura Ginjiro. The other heya members are transferred as follows:

Moving to Takadagawa-beya:

Hanakago-oyakata (former Sekiwake Daijuyama),  Juryo gyoji Kimura Mitsunosuke.

Moving to Nishiiwa-beya:

Makushita gyoji Kimura Kazuma,  Juryo yobidashi Hiroyuki and Masao,  4th class tokoyama Tokoaki.

=========================
 

Late edit just to have it in the thread, regarding the Azumazeki-beya closure:
 

17 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

On 12/03/2021 at 08:08, Kintamayama said:

Folding. April 1st. Everyone moves to Hakkaku.

 

The five remaining rikishi moved today (April 3rd being an auspicious day on the Rokuyo calendar) along with Azumazeki-oyakata (former Komusubi Takamisakari), Makuuchi gyoji Kimura Yonosuke and yobidashi Daikichi. Not making the trip was 3rd class tokoyama Tokokei, who preferred to retire instead after over 12 years in the job.

Former Juryo Kaonishiki, who retired after the Haru basho, had applied for a wakaimonogashira position at some point, but was unsuccessful.

 

Edited April 3, 2021 by Yubinhaad

[ryafuji 807]

Noting here for the record that Kotoyuki has retired and is borrowing the Kimigahama kabu from Okinoumi.

Chiganoura turned 70 on April 10th - is that vacant now?

[Sakura 1,472]

1 hour ago, ryafuji said:

Chiganoura turned 70 on April 10th - is that vacant now?

Speaking of which, was ex-Masudayama this first re-employed consultant to go all 5 years?

[WAKATAKE 2,631]

9 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Noting here for the record that Kotoyuki has retired and is borrowing the Kimigahama kabu from Okinoumi.

Chiganoura turned 70 on April 10th - is that vacant now?

As someone pointed out in the retirement thread, they could be saving Chiganoura for Takakeisho or Takanosho

[Kintamayama 44,354]

Sanoyama (ex-Satoyama) assumes the Chiganoura name. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Kintamayama

[Sakura 1,472]

1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

Satoyama assumes the Chiganoura name. 

Looks like he owns it outright. This means that Chiganoura goes back to Dewanoumi-ichimon as suspected.