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[Akinomaki 39,549]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm not declaring it a fraud, I'm declaring it a likely exercise in pragmatism. You seem to believe that everybody was vitally concerned with maintaining the lineage of a not-terribly-important stable whose two shisho have now both been forced out of the Kyokai under murky circumstances. I just happen to disagree.

Just because some people inside expected something to happen, doesn't mean the NSK had the intention to destroy the heya together with the shisho, which your explanation of what happens would imply. It just turned out to end that way, but they had offered a way to avoid it. I think they would have liked to either Kasugayama get his certificate and have it like Kise with a reopening at first with Nakagawa (switch with Kasugayama) and then back after a few more basho, or surgically remove Kasugayama and replace him with Nakagawa. The first was possible but of course highly unlikely, though to the same degree as my comparison with the other Kise. Nakagawa can't take over the heya like it was before, but that doesn't mean he doesn't take over that heya at all and just creates a new heya. Even if in fact he has to rebuild a heya in ruins, he is still taking over that same heya.

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I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me here... If you're referring to yourself: Did you not notice the shikona changes I was trying to highlight? Ex-Hamanishiki was only ousted for good in mid-January, but it appears some people were already certain of that outcome in late November or early December (not sure when shikona changes need to be notified to the gyoji that writes out the print banzuke).

I'm simply saying that just because I or anybody or even everybody is sure that something will happen or won't ever happen, it doesn't mean it really will or will never happen. Late November was way after the disaster had started, of course the outcome then could be expected. You have to look at it from the situation in mid October, all was lined out by the NSK at that point.

Because we can't really say what's happening, we can have a discussion about it. And because I'm suffering from a severe pics overdose, discussion is just what I'm in the mood for at the moment.

[Asashosakari 18,669]

On 29.1.2017 at 12:10, Akinomaki said:

I'm simply saying that just because I or anybody or even everybody is sure that something will happen or won't ever happen, it doesn't mean it really will or will never happen. Late November was way after the disaster had started, of course the outcome then could be expected. You have to look at it from the situation in mid October, all was lined out by the NSK at that point.

Given the way the Kyokai tends to operate, I highly doubt that things have actually happened the way it's been reported through the press - the rijikai getting fed up with Hamanishiki's lack of progress in his lawsuit, them ordering his heya into custody at Oitekaze, Nakagawa stepping in as "emergency coach" because Oitekaze-beya didn't actually have space to accommodate all those rikishi (who knew?), and Nakagawa then miraculously volunteering to take over as an official shisho. (51-year-old oyakata embarking on a major new project on short notice - happens all the time...)

IMHO, it's much more likely that the whole thing had been in the works for much longer than just since October, and that Nakagawa taking charge was always the desired goal, with or without shutting down Kasugayama-beya first. Yes, the "custody" angle allowed them to cover for the possibility that Hamanishiki might actually manage to sort out his issues, but I doubt that it was considered a likely outcome by the rijkai - the lawsuit had already dragged on for too long.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Akinomaki 39,549]

5 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

IMHO, it's much more likely that the whole thing had been in the works for much longer than just since October, and that Nakagawa taking charge was always the desired goal, with or without shutting down Kasugayama-beya first. Yes, the "custody" angle allowed them to cover for the possibility that Hamanishiki might actually manage to sort out his issues, but I doubt that it was considered a likely outcome by the rijkai - the lawsuit had already dragged on for too long

That is a likely scenario, but it gives no backing for the (slightly conspiring) theory that this isn't the (hostile) take-over of a heya like it officially is, but the creation of a new one.

I believe that as soon as Hamanishiki lost at court, the NSK changed the procedure for his removal from vague plan to earnest schedule.

And it would remain Kasugayama-beya, if the name were available.

Edited January 30, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Asashosakari 18,669]

Apropos the "how does the Kyokai see complex heya successions" question, I just noticed that the most recent banzuke topics proclaimed Takanohana-beya as "founded" in February 2004, not merely renamed from Futagoyama and continued... I thought that maybe it's just an error, but the previous times that Takanohana-beya was mentioned in the topics, the same phrasing was used.

(Before anyone asks, I'm of course talking about the Japanese original texts, not the English translations. Incidentally, they got an English native speaker to do those this time.)

Edit: Doesn't seem to be handled consistently. Fujishima-beya is referred to as "founded", while Yamahibiki-beya is "inherited", despite both receiving a name change on the shisho change. Maybe it's down to whether or not the new shisho fulfilled the founder criteria? Takanohana and Musoyama did, Ganyu didn't. Of course, Takanohana's case predates the enhanced regulations anyway.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Ryoshishokunin 259]

On 26/12/2016 at 15:26, Asashosakari said:

Am I the only one that has big issues with deleting unwanted quotes, or getting a cursor to appear outside of them? 

Semi-related question: what's the legal status of the Kasugayama kabu? The rights are owned by the last oyakata, but the physical certificate by the previous one? Any news on what happens from here?

Edited February 2, 2017 by Ryoshishokunin
Trying to fix formatting

[Akinomaki 39,549]

8 hours ago, Ryoshishokunin said:

Am I the only one that has big issues with deleting unwanted quotes, or getting a cursor to appear outside of them? 

Semi-related question: what's the legal status of the Kasugayama kabu? The rights are owned by the last oyakata, but the physical certificate by the previous one? Any news on what happens from here?

Hard to guess who wrote what when all is just a quote. I have completely different issues with quotes - vanishing large posts or the link of the quote going nowhere or not to the original text. To get the cursor outside of a quote or a table: "select all" of the post (click somewhere outside of the quote or table) , cut, 2, 3 times return and paste in the middle.

The NSK surely won't do anything till the trial is over.

On 16.1.2017 at 18:26, Akinomaki said:

The retirement has been accepted by the NSK

- but the appeal trial will still go on next month.

On 16.1.2017 at 08:42, Akinomaki said:

I wonder if the NSK can now (or later) repossess Kasugayama's kabu certificate or if they can reissue it.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 39,549]

The NSK announced today the creation of Nakagawa-beya as of Jan. 26th, as succession to the former Kasugayama-beya, with 14 members (apart from Nakagawa): 9 rikishi and gyoji, yobidashi etc.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1773903.html

http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017020300528&g=spo

Edited February 10, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Fukurou 534]

On 1/27/2017 at 19:05, Asashosakari said:

- Naruto (ex-Kotooshu) is no longer reliant on his iin-equivalent favoured status as a former ozeki, as he has now amassed enough time to make the iin ranks the regular way as well

Does Naruto have his own kabu, or is he borrowing? Does he even need one, long term, being an ex-ozeki?
 

5 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The NSK announced today the creation of Nakagawa-beya as of Jan. 26th, as succession to the former Kasugayama-beya, with 14 members (apart from Nakagawa): 9 rikishi and gyoji, yobidashi etc.

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1773903.html

http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2017020300528&g=spo

So then is this Nakagawa (new) or Nakagawa (re-established with a name change from Kasugayama or  Oitekaze (II))? I'm honestly getting lost trying to keep this one straight.

[Gurowake 3,875]

1 hour ago, Fukurou said:

Does Naruto have his own kabu, or is he borrowing? Does he even need one, long term, being an ex-ozeki?

As a former Ozeki, he got a 3-year period to use his own name before needing to acquire a kabu.  That period would have ended next basho, so if he has an actual toshiyori name now, that means it's actually his.  At least, that's my assumption. 

[Fukurou 534]

5 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

At least, that's my assumption. 

Difficult to keep it all the in's and out's straight sometimes, isn't it? 

[Bumpkin 438]

Naruto Oyakata (Kotoosho) has owned the kabu since December 2015.

[Akinomaki 39,549]

10 hours ago, Fukurou said:

15 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The NSK announced today the creation of Nakagawa-beya as of Jan. 26th, as succession to the former Kasugayama-beya

So then is this Nakagawa (new) or Nakagawa (re-established with a name change from Kasugayama or  Oitekaze (II))?

Both - the typical Japanese way.

A bit like Ise-jingu: gets a new building at another location every 20 years, but still is always the same ancient shrine.

 

[Muhomatsu 224]

Naruto-oyakata (former Ozeki Kotooshu) will branch out on his own in April according to this article.  He will restart Naruto-beya with one deshi (his own recruit) from Sadogatake.  He also is supposed to have a Bulgarian recruit for May.

 

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1786042.html

Edited March 1, 2017 by Muhomatsu

[Kintamayama 44,263]

On 1.3.2017 at 21:03, Muhomatsu said:

Naruto-oyakata (former Ozeki Kotooshu) will branch out on his own in April according to this article.  He will restart Naruto-beya with one deshi (his own recruit) from Sadogatake.  He also is supposed to have a Bulgarian recruit for May.

 

http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/1786042.html

First look at the new Bulgarian recruit  courtesy of Viki Lyn Paulson Cody:

 

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 44,263]

Ex- Kyokutenhou will officially take over Tomozuna beya after the May 2017 basho, it was announced today, with the retirement of the current Tomozuna. He will swap kabus with him then. He will be the first Mongolian to head a heya.

[Atenzan 1,074]

So there will be no Oshima-beya after all, huh? Well, it will be nice to see Kyokutenhou as a shisho. 

[Raishu 202]

17 hours ago, McBugger said:

So there will be no Oshima-beya after all, huh? Well, it will be nice to see Kyokutenhou as a shisho. 

It looks like that. But who can blame him? Taking over an existing heya with all its ties and structures is the easier path than building one from the scratch. Plus, he will be in charge of the former Oshima-beya rikishi. Who knows whether Tomozuna would have given his OK to branch with that group of rikishi, if Tenho had the intention to go on his own?

As an avid opposer of the foundation of new heya*, I appreciate this development.

 

* Looking at the current numbers, I think we have an okay ratio (overall number of rikishi / overall number of heya) when it comes to wrestlers and stables. New recruits included, there will be 692 rikishi in March, scattered over 44 stables (rounded that would make 16 rikishi per stable). Sure enough, reality is a bit different with monster-heya like Sadogatake and Isegahama having more than twice the average in their stables while on the other side, declining heya like Kagamiyama (2), Izutsu (4) or Kataonami (4) are in dire straits.

With new heya on the horizon (Kotooshu -> Naruto / Miyabiyama -> Futagoyama / Wakanosato -> Nishiiwa / Yoshikaze -> Nakamura(?)), I hope we won't go back to times where we had more than 50 stables (and many with barely 5 rikishi in them to have constant asageiko).

[Asashosakari 18,669]

56 minutes ago, Raishu said:

With new heya on the horizon (Kotooshu -> Naruto / Miyabiyama -> Futagoyama / Wakanosato -> Nishiiwa / Yoshikaze -> Nakamura(?)), I hope we won't go back to times where we had more than 50 stables (and many with barely 5 rikishi in them to have constant asageiko).

On the other hand, the next three shisho to retire include Arashio and Minezaki who might both not have a successor in 3/4 years as they don't seem too well-connected to me. And Yoshikaze may not even get to branch out at all - he'll surely continue to be active for a little while longer, and Oguruma already turns 60 next month as well.

I wonder what the plan is for Izutsu-beya...takeover-by-merger by Terao once Kakuryu's retirement leaves the stable with nothing of importance except its name? Sakahoko still has almost 10 years left, but it's depressing to see another once major heya go the way the old Nishonoseki and old Isegahama did.

As for Kyokutenho, I agree that it's a no-brainer to take over an existing heya if offered - especially one with as big a name as Tomozuna, whose extended history goes back over a hundred years - rather than trying to revive a one-generation stable like Oshima. The Oshima history will live on through Kyokutenho with this move, anyway. (Incidentally, one could argue that this takeover eliminates another of the Tomozuna/Takashima branches that used to form a major part of the old Tatsunami-Isegahama rengo - the main historical root of Isegahama-ichimon as currently constituted is now pretty much Oshima-beya, via Asahifuji and Kyokutenho.)

Edited March 5, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Raishu 202]

9 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

On the other hand, the next three shisho to retire include Arashio and Minezaki who might both not have a successor in 3/4 years as they don't seem too well-connected to me.

Unless Sokokurai decides to naturalize, Arashio beya surely needs an outsider to continue after the current shisho's retirement. Since it has a historical connection to Tokitsukaze beya, I could imagine ex-Oyutaka might find a possible successor there. Wishful thinking aside, Toyonoshima will probably be retired in three years and that stable does not look too shabby at all with the talented Onami guys in it. Even ex-Tosayutaka or ex-Aogiyama could throw their hats in the ring as well, in case there are interested.

Minezaki beya defintely has to go for an outsider. I can't imagine Hanakago replacing the current shisho for a mere three years before reaching the magical 65 himself. May I dream of Kotoshogiku taking over instead of opening his own Hidenoyama stable?

 

Quote

And Yoshikaze may not even get to branch out at all - he'll surely continue to be active for a little while longer, and Oguruma already turns 60 next month as well.

That's probably true. My thoughts were inspired by Akinomaki's reports on Yoshikaze's first private deshi and his dream of becoming independent some day. I assume Takekaze is Oguruma's choice for his succession.

http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/topic/35049-new-recruits-for-natsu-2016/

[Asashosakari 18,669]

34 minutes ago, Raishu said:

That's probably true. My thoughts were inspired by Akinomaki's reports on Yoshikaze's first private deshi and his dream of becoming independent some day. I assume Takekaze is Oguruma's choice for his succession.

I could be totally off-base, but my impression has always been that Takekaze might be more interested in the administrative side of Ozumo rather than the coaching side. He's certainly not a sumo-and-nothing-but-sumo guy - didn't even start doing it until high school (judo before that), attended a second-tier university as far as sumo programs go, and apparently didn't even intend to go pro initially - his ja.wiki profile says he made the decision when he witnessed same-school Dejima becoming ozeki (which was in Takekaze's second year at Chuo). In addition, years ago I read somewhere that he's apparently a bit of a sumo history buff, so he's probably not the typical sports jock. All that makes it much easier for me to picture him with an office job in one of the honbasho departments or someplace than as the Oguruma-beya head coach...

Edited March 5, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Yubinhaad 11,506]

Not sure if we have a specific thread about citizenship, but it is also potentially relevant here. Asasekiryu has been granted Japanese citizenship and is therefore eligible to hold a myoseki, paving the way for him to stay in the Kyokai after intai. It was formally announced in the Official Gazette today, seen at the bottom of this screenshot:

Edited April 21, 2017 by Yubinhaad

[WAKATAKE 2,615]

If this isn't a telltale sign that he may be getting ready to hang up the mawashi, I don't know what is.

[Asashosakari 18,669]

32 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

If this isn't a telltale sign that he may be getting ready to hang up the mawashi, I don't know what is.

Why, did you expect him to hang around for significantly longer before this announcement?

[WAKATAKE 2,615]

35 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Why, did you expect him to hang around for significantly longer before this announcement?

Not so much. You never know if somebody else might though. So I guess now the bets are on which one he gets?

[Asashosakari 18,669]

On 21.4.2017 at 18:09, WAKATAKE said:

So I guess now the bets are on which one he gets?

Haven't seen anything specific yet, but guesses elsewhere have focused on Magaki (Tokitenku estate) and Oyama (same ichimon, mandatory retirement in October). The latter may be blocked by yet another re-employment though, given that Oyama has been a long-time fixture in the administrative ranks and seems to be well-regarded behind the scenes.

Outside of those the current choice of "open" kabu looks pretty bare - Onogawa (Kitanoumi estate) is unlikely to leave Dewanoumi-ichimon, and with the ill-fated Kasugayama and Kumagatani shares it's arguably not even clear who's holding the rights to sell them.

If Asasekiryu has some longer-term target it wouldn't be hard to arrange an interim loan. Takasago-ichimon is loaning out two shares at the moment, which would certainly get recalled if there's a need for one of their own. Potentially bad news for Hochiyama (in Okinoumi's Kimigahama) or Tosayutaka (in Chiyootori's Sanoyama).

If I had to bet, I'd go with Magaki. That kabu has been a hot potato in recent years anyway - if Asasekiryu takes it, it would be in its 5th ichimon since 2010 - and it's unlikely that the Tokitsukaze group will have much of a way of preventing another move.