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[Yubinhaad 11,546]

And in the other Rijikai decision today, thirteen oyakata have been appointed to the newly-created social contribution department (社会貢献部), which will be involved in responding to emergencies, disaster relief, fundraising for charitable donations and so on. This is a formal follow-on from the Dosukoi Volunteer Team which helped to raise funds and visited affected areas following the Tohoku earthquake and tsunami of 2011.

Standing from left: Mihogaseki (Tochisakae), Shiranui (Wakakoyu), Kiyomigata (Bushuyama), Araiso (Tamaasuka), Onogawa (Daido), Sanoyama (Tosayutaka).

Seated from left: Iwatomo (Kimurayama), Hanaregoma (Tamanoshima), Takenawa (Tochinonada), Furiwake (Takamisakari), Sekinoto (Iwakiyama).

Two other members not in the picture are Hatachiyama (Tochinohana) and Takasaki (Kinkaiyama).

Edited January 26, 2017 by Yubinhaad

[orandashoho 720]

Furiwake (ex-Takamisakari) is such a character, instantly recognisable by his indomitable enthousiasm. I love seeing him smile!

Is there any news of Oshima (ex-Kyokutenho)? I was a huge fan, but he seems to hae dropped below the radar completely. Is he going to reopen Oshima beya?

Edited January 26, 2017 by orandashoho
"sticky keyboard" typos

[Asojima 2,870]

14 minutes ago, orandashoho said:

Is there any news of Oshima (ex-Kyokutenho)? I was a huge fan, but he seems to hae dropped below the radar completely. Is he going to reopen Oshima beya?

Oshima was very visible during the Hatsu basho on guard duty and as a guest commentator on NHK. 

[Fukurou 534]

23 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Standing from left: Mihogaseki (Tochisakae), Shiranui (Wakakoyu), Kiyomigata (Bushuyama), Araiso (Tamaasuka), Onogawa (Daido), Sanoyama (Tosayutaka).

Seated from left: Iwatomo (Kimurayama), Hanaregoma (Tamanoshima), Takenawa (Tochinonada), Furiwake (Takamisakari), Sekinoto (Iwakiyama).

Two other members not in the picture are Hatachiyama (Tochinohana) and Takasaki (Kinkaiyama).

Judging by who is in this department, this almost looks like an "entry level" assignment. With the exception of Takasaki (ex-Kinkaiyama), everyone on it has retired since 2008, with seven since 2012 (three of them just last year). Maybe there's a chance it could become a physically active thing, and so they loaded it up with younger guys?

[Tamanaogijima 741]

16 hours ago, ryafuji said:

Except that as mentioned over on the Kasugayama scandal thread ex-Asahisato with only four mauuchi basho doesn't come anywhere near the criteria for opening a "new" heya which are: be a yokozuna or ozeki, or have 20 tournaments in sanyaku, or have 60 basho in makuuchi. So it will have to be regarded as the takeover of an existing (albeit temporarily vanished!) heya.

Another question in that context: During the dormant months the "Kasugayama entitiy" changed its ichimon affiliation -- so which ichimon will Nakagawa-beya belong to now?
a) Isegahama-ichimon, because Nakagawa was "independent enough" within Oitekaze during caretake spell already
b) Tokitsukaze-ichimon, because Oitekaze-shisho's decision includes everyone in his heya

 

[Yubinhaad 11,546]

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 15:55, Yubinhaad said:

Chiganoura-oyakata (former Komusubi Takamisugi) joins as a regular shimpan for the first time.

I can't find anything official about who is leaving the group, but Takenawa-oyakata (former Sekiwake Tochinonada) and Hanaregoma-oyakata (former Sekiwake Tamanoshima) have both joined the newly-created social contribution group (more on that later), so it could be them.

I forgot all about the ichimon division of labour in the shimpan group. According to the Kyokai website, Chiganoura is replacing fellow Takanohana-ichimon member Otowayama (former Maegashira Kobo), who returns to his previous roles as a coach at the sumo school and a kimarite official. Leaving those duties in turn is Sekinoto (former Komusubi Iwakiyama) who has joined the new social contribution department.

One correction to the post about that new department: Kimigahama-oyakata (former Maegashira Hochiyama) has also joined it, so there are 14 members, not 13. The Kyokai simply didn't mention him when they posted the above picture. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Yubinhaad

[Asashosakari 18,786]

(2016 changes + subsequent posts)

Piggybacking on Yubinhaad's posts, and partly duplicating them (sorry about that!), here's the full list of "mid-term" job changes:

In a surprising development, Kagamiyama (ex-Tagaryu) is apparently no longer the director for the General Enterprises department - that post has been taken over by PR chief Kasugano (ex-Tochinowaka) who now holds both the #3 and #4 jobs. Further confusing the picture here is that new deputy head shimpan Yamashina (ex-Onishiki) was the deputy director for GE, so suddenly one of the most important sections in the Kyokai's hierarchy not only has a new guy on top, but also no deputy at all. All very odd, and I can only assume that it's just a temporary/interim measure.

Summarizing the musical chairs by regular oyakata (largely mentioned by Yubinhaad already):

- Chiganoura (ex-Takamisugi) left the Nagoya basho department (with no replacement) and moved to the shimpan group
- Otowayama (ex-Kobo) left the shimpan group and moved back to the sumo school
- Sekinoto (ex-Iwakiyama) left the sumo school and moved to...ticketing? That's a rather odd job change as well.

Plus of course the aforementioned 14 appointments to the new social contribution group. All of these are additional to their respective other jobs, nobody has given up on his position for this. (Other than Sekinoto's unrelated job change, of course.) Because of that I would guess that this is more an ad-hoc thing, in which these 14 oyakata will be sent out on individual tasks as needed, rather than a for-real new department with ongoing duties.

And a bunch of rank changes:

- Naruto (ex-Kotooshu) is no longer reliant on his iin-equivalent favoured status as a former ozeki, as he has now amassed enough time to make the iin ranks the regular way as well
- promoted from toshiyori to shunin were: Nishiiwa (ex-Wakanosato), Oshima (ex-Kyokutenho), Shiranui (ex-Wakakoyu), Tatsutagawa (ex-Homasho)

These promotions largely match what I surmised last year, although I'd probably have expected some shunin -> iin promotions as well. (Maybe those only happen in the even-numbered years now?) Oshima and Nishiiwa did get promoted seemingly early, as their retirements were only a year and a half ago, but maybe that's just due to their already advanced ages and/or the fact that they had such distinguished careers for non-ozeki. In any case, there's only one kabu-owning oyakata at the lowest, toshiyori rank now, recently retired Tokitenku. The rest are all borrowers.

On a sidenote: Does Yamashina's early advancement to deputy head shimpan mean that the 4 head honchos are now going to rotate together through the three daily shifts as head shimpan? I suppose 25% less of Tomozuna in those spots isn't the worst of things...

Edited January 28, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 18,786]

On 26.1.2017 at 18:11, ryafuji said:

Except that as mentioned over on the Kasugayama scandal thread ex-Asahisato with only four mauuchi basho doesn't come anywhere near the criteria for opening a "new" heya which are: be a yokozuna or ozeki, or have 20 tournaments in sanyaku, or have 60 basho in makuuchi. So it will have to be regarded as the takeover of an existing (albeit temporarily vanished!) heya.

Yep, the linked Nikkan article outright calls it a "succession [as shisho] to the former stable", so there's clearly a bit of legal fiction at play here. I don't quite know what to make of the whole deal - will the former Kasugayama-beya supporters (especially the well-heeled ones) flock back in sufficent numbers to make the revival viable? Would be a bit silly if it struggles along for a few years only to get merged back into Oitekaze (or another stable) with even fewer rikishi than the now-remaining 9.

I'll be amused if the new Nakagawa-beya hires ex-Hamanishiki as a paid coach...

(And I echo Tamanaogijima's question - if anybody has any idea which ichimon the revived heya now belongs to, please do speak up.)

Edited January 28, 2017 by Asashosakari

[Akinomaki 39,798]

10 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Yep, the linked Nikkan article outright calls it a "succession [as shisho] to the former stable", so there's clearly a bit of legal fiction at play here

The old heya hadn't been vanquished, the rikishi and all the rest in it were put into the custody of Oitekaze-beya, to be re-established under a new oyakata - and it all turned out as planned:

On 12.10.2016 at 17:03, Akinomaki said:

Kasugayama-beya will disappear for Kyushu, it will be reestablished when a successor has been found.

In 2010 Kise-beya was ordered to disappear into Dewanoumi-ichimon custody for an undefined period of time and the members were in Kitanoumi-beya under supervision for about 2 years.

On 13.10.2016 at 18:12, Akinomaki said:

Oitekaze-oyakata

thinks it is for one basho and that then the heya will be reestablished under a new shisho.

On 20.10.2016 at 12:09, Akinomaki said:

The heya might be revived with Nakagawa as new shisho after the Hatsu basho.

On 20.10.2016 at 18:06, Akinomaki said:

Coach Nakagawa first of all wants to give the rikishi emotional support and will stay there together with the rikishi.

So it already is like the future heya from the start - why didn't they just swap shisho at once and have the heya go on like before?

On 20.10.2016 at 18:42, Asashosakari said:

Not really the same thing, unless Nakagawa actually wants to own a stable himself. Right now he's just managing one.

On 21.10.2016 at 18:47, Akinomaki said:

The koenkai of Kasugayama-beya (338 members) will not support the heya any longer with another shisho." We are drawn to the heya by the sincere character of the present oyakata and supported it based on a firm relation of mutual trust" and won't do that with anybody else.

The heya will have to get a new local koenkai or they have to move away from Kawasaki - the prefecture is interested in keeping them there, so they likely will find some new/old support.

4 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

Kasugayama-beya had the label of Oitekaze-beya II for a while, but was in fact already Nakagawa-beya then - they waited for the Kasugayama problem to be solved one way or the other, else it could have been an easier and earlier transition to the new shisho. Ex-Asahisato can be seen as having been acting shisho for a never really vanished heya so far, and just like his predecessor ex-Hamanishiki he wasn't qualified to have a heya on his own, but he may become a good successor, if he manages to get support.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Asashosakari 18,786]

3 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The old heya hadn't been vanquished, the rikishi and all the rest in it were put into the custody of Oitekaze-beya, to be re-established under a new oyakata

And the Kyokai typically considers a "re-established" stable to be a new entity, the Kise->Kitanoumi->Kise exception notwithstanding. The custody stuff is the legal fiction here. I guess we'll see what happens if/when a rikishi becomes sekitori from this stable - I'm betting he'll be considered the first sekitori of Nakagawa-beya by the Kyokai, not the x-th sekitori of "the stable formerly known as Kasugayama-beya that was renamed to Nakagawa-beya".

On another note, I guess nobody actually believed that ex-Hamanishiki would be getting his deshi back, even before he was eventually sent packing by the Kyokai: http://sumodb.sumogames.de/Query.aspx?show_form=0&columns=1&shikona=Okuni*&group_by=rikishi&showheya=on&form1_year=201609-201701&group_expand=on

[Akinomaki 39,798]

31 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

And the Kyokai typically considers a "re-established" stable to be a new entity, the Kise->Kitanoumi->Kise exception notwithstanding. The custody stuff is the legal fiction here.

Re-established means a heya has vanished in the meantime. This heya never vanished, the legal fiction is the name it has at the moment: Oitekaze (II).

Kise-beya really vanished out of sight for a while, but even then not as a heya - the rikishi never were actual Kitanoumi-beya rikishi, only had to start under that name and to live there: the legal fiction also here was the name. As long as the members are only "azukari", the original heya exists. Only if that is abandoned and they get put really into the other heya, the old heya has ceased to exist. This is different from an oyakata who has uchi-deshi and later gets independent with them from the old heya, like Oshima might do to re-establish Oshima-beya. Kise re-established the heya, but it wasn't a new heya, it was the old that had been in limbo.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Naganoyama 5,854]

I wonder whether the higher qualifications for opening a new heya might be partly about the fact that starting afresh requires greater management skills than just carrying on an existing heya.  Nakagawa Beya hardly required much setting up as the old stable largely retained all its infrastructure. This is obviously a flawed argument since there is nothing about being ranked higher or longer at Sumo which makes a man fitter for the management side of running a heya, but...

[Gurowake 3,922]

51 minutes ago, Naganoyama said:

I wonder whether the higher qualifications for opening a new heya might be partly about the fact that starting afresh requires greater management skills than just carrying on an existing heya.  Nakagawa Beya hardly required much setting up as the old stable largely retained all its infrastructure. This is obviously a flawed argument since there is nothing about being ranked higher or longer at Sumo which makes a man fitter for the management side of running a heya, but...

I immediately thought the last sentence when reading the first, but it might not be as bad of an argument when considering how much support a heya receives from its fan club, which is going to have deeper pockets the more successful the rikishi was.  The requirements for new heya practically mean being an Ozeki or having an extremely long-lived stay in Makuuchi, either of which is likely to inspire more people to donate to their cause than someone who just barely meets the requirements of being an oyakata.

[Yubinhaad 11,546]

Unless there are any serious objections, I think I'll keep the Kasugayama entity as a closed heya in my survivors thread. Nakagawa feels like a new heya even though they managed to use some obscure technicality to fudge their way around calling it that.

 

18 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

On a sidenote: Does Yamashina's early advancement to deputy head shimpan mean that the 4 head honchos are now going to rotate together through the three daily shifts as head shimpan? I suppose 25% less of Tomozuna in those spots isn't the worst of things...

I was wondering about that myself. If so, presumably they'll also all take part in the Haru basho sansho selection committee meeting, since the chief and deputy chiefs are the Kyokai voters there.

From April, Tomozuna will join the lifestyle guidance department. Three of the over-65 re-employed oyakata already work in that department, so I'd say the odds are short that Tomozuna will also be granted another five years after he turns 65 in June.

Thanks for the much better wrap-up of the changes, btw!

[Akinomaki 39,798]

34 minutes ago, Yubinhaad said:

Unless there are any serious objections, I think I'll keep the Kasugayama entity as a closed heya in my survivors thread. Nakagawa feels like a new heya even though they managed to use some obscure technicality to fudge their way around calling it that.

I have an objection if you don't list the survivors of the old Kise-beya, which are now in the re-established Kise-beya. The case is the same, only with a shisho change. There isn't anything obscure about the way the case was handled. In both cases the heya simply was condemned to custody and got/gets released again.

[Yubinhaad 11,546]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

I have an objection if you don't list the survivors of the old Kise-beya, which are now in the re-established Kise-beya. The case is the same, only with a shisho change. There isn't anything obscure about the way the case was handled. In both cases the heya simply was condemned to custody and got/gets released again.

I did list them when the heya closed, and then removed the entry when it re-opened because it was exactly the same heya, same name, same shisho, same everything. They were no longer survivors of a closed heya because the closed heya was back in the same state as before.

To me, Kasugayama-beya closed, the last shisho is out of the Kyokai, and the surviving rikishi are now in a different heya with a new shisho. That's why I wrote "feels" in italics, it's just the way it feels to me - I'm not saying it's the technical truth of the matter, just my own observation of it for the purpose of my survivors thread.

That said, I do see your point and I'll consider it further before doing anything.

[Akinomaki 39,798]

I think you should put the Kise survivors back into an extra corner "having survived temporary closure".

Reality is:
Nakagawa can't establish a new heya

The assumption that it is a new heya and treating it like a branch-out is only viable if he takes with him
someone who was in Oitekaze before Kasugayama was put into their custody.

Nakagawa takes over a heya that has been decapitated and robbed of most of its members and more - of course it's not the same heya: the ruins of one.

 

Edited January 28, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Asashosakari 18,786]

As far as I'm concerned, the facts are likely this:

- Folks at the Kyokai believe that the remaining ex-Kasugayama rikishi are probably better off on their own.
- Folks at the Kyokai believe that Oitekaze-beya is probably better off not having to care for 9 (and originally over 20) additional rikishi.
- Nakagawa-oyakata has volunteered to be the guy who makes this happen.
- Nakagawa-oyakata is probably the only guy who has volunteered.

Consequently, the "custody" story was invented early on to facilitate all that, while (superficially) staying within the Kyokai's own rules concerning heya ownership. I don't expect them to actually stick to the story beyond the Nakagawa-beya creation date. As soon as it's a fait accompli, I bet they'll treat it as a new stable, not as the legit continuation of the Kasugafuji/Hamanishiki-led Kasugayama-beya. It's not a repeat of the Kise-beya situation, other than the fact that the word "custody" was invoked in both cases.
 

54 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

The assumption that it is a new heya and treating it like a branch-out is only viable if he takes with him someone who was in Oitekaze before Kasugayama was put into their custody.

Nakagawa himself doesn't count? That's more than we could say if ex-Kyokutenho were to re-establish Oshima-beya tomorrow, which would in fact consist entirely of people who were already in the old Oshima, including the new shisho.

[Akinomaki 39,798]

8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Nakagawa himself doesn't count? That's more than we could say if ex-Kyokutenho were to re-establish Oshima-beya tomorrow, which would in fact consist entirely of people who were already in the old Oshima, including the new shisho.

Of course Nakagawa doesn't count - else every new outside shisho like Takamisugi->Chiganoura would mean the death of a heya.

Oshima-beya is not in limbo (though it maybe is in our head), it was closed for good.

6 hours ago, John Gunning said:

You're saying that everyone involved knew Kise would be allowed to re-open? I'm not sure that was the case.

I'm not saying this - the "penalty" could have been made permanent and that would have been the end of the heya.

In both cases we can only in retrospective judge the whole period of the heya being in limbo.

Had both been not put back into life, the point of death could safely been put to the date of the closure, which only afterwards would have been known to be permanent and not temporary.

A bit like the number of a yokozuna promoted together with another only is known after the first retires.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Akinomaki 39,798]

8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Consequently, the "custody" story was invented early on to facilitate all that, while (superficially) staying within the Kyokai's own rules concerning heya ownership. I don't expect them to actually stick to the story beyond the Nakagawa-beya creation date. As soon as it's a fait accompli, I bet they'll treat it as a new stable, not as the legit continuation of the Kasugafuji/Hamanishiki-led Kasugayama-beya. It's not a repeat of the Kise-beya situation, other than the fact that the word "custody" was invoked in both cases.

The custody story wasn't invented early on: it was part of the "penalty" to Kasugayama even before he accepted to step down as shisho and before anybody in the heya started to think of retiring.

Everything was done in the open, called from the start what it was and what it turned out to become, like I tried to show in the lineup of events above from the Kasugayama thread.

Custody is not just another fact mentioned - it is the whole story.

I'm surprised that this time you are not giving an explanation of reality like you usually do, but chose to declare it a fraud.

19 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I guess nobody actually believed that ex-Hamanishiki would be getting his deshi back, even before he was eventually sent packing by the Kyokai

the same nobody who after last basho believed that Kise would be yokozuna after this one?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Akinomaki

[Bumpkin 438]

21 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

 

A bit like the number of a yokozuna promoted together with another only is known after the first retires.

Are you stating that Kashiwado is the 47th yokozuna and Taiho the 48th because Kashiwado retired first?

[Akinomaki 39,798]

3 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Are you stating that Kashiwado is the 47th yokozuna and Taiho the 48th because Kashiwado retired first?

that's the rule

[Gurowake 3,922]

4 minutes ago, Bumpkin said:

Are you stating that Kashiwado is the 47th yokozuna and Taiho the 48th because Kashiwado retired first?

That is indeed the only reason they are numbered that way.

[Bumpkin 438]

I did not know that.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

I'm surprised that this time you are not giving an explanation of reality like you usually do, but chose to declare it a fraud.

I'm not declaring it a fraud, I'm declaring it a likely exercise in pragmatism. You seem to believe that everybody was vitally concerned with maintaining the lineage of a not-terribly-important stable whose two shisho have now both been forced out of the Kyokai under murky circumstances. I just happen to disagree.
 

the same nobody who after last basho believed that Kise would be yokozuna after this one?

I'm sorry, but you've completely lost me here... If you're referring to yourself: Did you not notice the shikona changes I was trying to highlight? Ex-Hamanishiki was only ousted for good in mid-January, but it appears some people were already certain of that outcome in late November or early December (not sure when shikona changes need to be notified to the gyoji that writes out the print banzuke).