Kintamayama

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Musashimaru has borrowed the Furiwake name, which belongs to ex-Asaarashi who retired in July. He decided to stay with the Kyokai after marrying a Japanese lady in April. He will be the second foreigner holding a kabubabu after Azumazeki.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Musashimaru has borrowed the Furiwake name, which belongs to ex-Asaarashi who retired in July.

So the Takamisakari - Furiwake deal was just a hoax... ?? (Sign of approval...)

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Musashimaru has borrowed the Furiwake name, which belongs to ex-Asaarashi who retired in July.

So the Takamisakari - Furiwake deal was just a hoax... ?? (Sign of approval...)

Couldn't it be that Musashimaru borrowed it from Takamisakari?

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Takamisakari is the owner of Furiwake kabu > Post #94 in this Thread. IIRC it was the last transaction that has been reported same-day and not only confirmed some months after.

The Musashigawa > Furiwake transfer puzzles me a lot. As we all know Furiwake-kabu belongs to Takasago-ichimon, Musashimaru is of Dewanoumi-ichimon. Takasago-ichimon will need its kabu for own rikishi sooner rather than later.

Now, how does Inagawa-kabu fit (or not) into this picture? Given that Kinkaiyama is NOT it's owner (next banzuke should tell us for sure) it is not Miyabiyama's either. He would have given his kabu to his senpai. Musashimaru himself isn't the owner, too, for obvious reasons. Two young theories killed in one sweep...

Who owns it then? Still Yoshinohana? And more important: For whom is it reserved?

EDIT: Yoshinohana has no Makuuchi relative (= possible kabu heir) according to Yubi's prommain.xls from November 2001. I can't remember of a relative of his in the years 2002 to 2008 either.

Edited by Tamanaogijima

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Takamisakari is the owner of Furiwake kabu > Post #94 in this Thread. IIRC it was the last transaction that has been reported same-day and not only confirmed some months after.

FWIW, I'm not even sure if that was same-day, either. Admittedly it was in the "respectable" papers (unlike the Kisenosato-Araiso thing that only made the tabloids), but the way it was phrased definitely wasn't the same as the official releases which usually read like straight wire copy, and typically have a "this is effective as of [date]" type of statement included. The Takamisakari-Furiwake transfer didn't have that.

Or who knows, maybe those reports back in January were simply in error...

Edited by Asashosakari

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Since the report says Furiwake is owned by former Asaarashi, Takamisakari doesn't own it at the moment.

I noticed the Kyokai page has been already updated for Furiwake with Musashimaru but he is all the way up there for someone just borrowing a Kabu. So it sure pays to be a former yokozuna as even with a borrowed Kabu, he is not just a Hira oyakata.

Edited by Jonosuke

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I noticed the Kyokai page has been already updated for Furiwake with Musashimaru but he is all the way up there for someone just borrowing a Kabu. So it sure pays to be a former yokozuna as even with a borrowed Kabu, he is not just a Hira oyakata.

Yes, he's in the same spot on the list as he was before as Musashimaru-oyakata.

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Couldn't it be that Musashimaru borrowed it from Takamisakari?

Sure, that was my first thought, too. But why would ex-Asaarashi's name appear, if the Furiwake-Takamisakari transfer is said to be a done deal?

Due to the current ambiguity: Can't it be that the report on Takamisakari's acquisition was just based on secret sources? Ex-Asaarashi promised the kabu to him unofficially and the press got wind of that?

Of course only one of many possible explainations... (Scratching chin...)

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Of course only one of many possible explainations... (Scratching chin...)

Another might be that it's one big charade...it's highly unusual that a yokozuna is only borrowing, and maybe the Kyokai leadership pulled some strings to enable this on short notice. That might include making it appear as though it's at least a stable situation - which it only is if he's borrowing from a retired guy, but not from an active rikishi (who might need his own stock back anytime).

And based on that logic, one might even assume that Takamisakari is in fact the kabu owner, or at least that it's already promised to somebody...if that wasn't the case, they could have simply said "yup, Musashimaru bought this" as part of a phony transfer story while he tries to get together the money for real.

All speculative, of course.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I think there is another possibility.

I never had a gut feeling that Maru wanted to stay with the Kyokai forever. He became a Japanese national to stay with the Kyokai just like Akebono did but I think that was more to do with being a yokozuna. They probably both felt they should acquire the citizenship once they became yokozuna.

Of course having the citizenship, they could have automatically stayed with the Kyokai for five years and during that time they could really decide if they really wanted to stay with the Kyokai or not for life. For Akebono I guess the restrictions got too much for him as well as he still wanted to make something of himself for his family.

Maru only got married this year and to a Japanese woman. I think this borrowing has something to do with him wanting to stay with the Kyokai a little bit longer as an oyakata's job is not really streneous and stressfull. It's pretty easy money for now. By borrowing a kabu now it will give him a bit more time to find something else to do, perhaps to start up some business venture with his wife. Since he run out of time for now, he got Furiwake but I think this is up to the time when Takamisakari retires. I believe if he really wanted to stay with the Kyokai for life, he would have started looking for a permanent kabu long ago. There were other opportunities which he not only missed but appeared to show no interest in owing one.

I really think Furikwake has been promised to Takamisakari but he really does not need it right now and meanwhile Asaarashi can keep it for a little while and get some rent money. It's a Takasago Ichimon kabu and I don't see it's going anywhere else. I have no doubt it will go to Takamisakari in the end. As for Maru, it's only a temporary pit stop. Who knows what the next chapter for him. I am not sure even he himself knows.

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I never had a gut feeling that Maru wanted to stay with the Kyokai forever. He became a Japanese national to stay with the Kyokai just like Akebono did but I think that was more to do with being a yokozuna. They probably both felt they should acquire the citizenship once they became yokozuna.

I agree with you, but Maru has Japanese citizenship since 1996, before his second yusho and three years before becoming yokozuna. His eligibility to stay in the Kyokai was long clear though so it's just the same reasoning from the ozeki rank.

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Perhaps his interests have changed since he got married - staying in Japan has become more attractive.

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There aren't going to be any press articles about it if recent patterns keep up, but for the record today is Araiso-oyakata's last day as he turns 65 tomorrow.

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I wonder why Kotonishiki has not yet picked it up. Obviously he's got nerves of steel as he is still sitting on that potential catapult seat Asakayama. (Kaio's calls for perseverance don't seem to be as determined as those of the last years.)

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I wonder why Kotonishiki has not yet picked it up. Obviously he's got nerves of steel as he is still sitting on that potential catapult seat Asakayama. (Kaio's calls for perseverance don't seem to be as determined as those of the last years.)

I know there is a ownership limit of 1 toshiyori per individual however Takanohana, who was granted Ichidai Toshiyori status, I believe is still the owner of Futagoyama name which is currently leant out. Wouldn't it be possible at least in the short term for Kotonishiki to continue borrowing Asakayama even if Kaio went intai while Kaio used his shikona as jun-toshiyori? I don't know what the etiquette and/or rules for that sort of thing are.

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I know there is a ownership limit of 1 toshiyori per individual however Takanohana, who was granted Ichidai Toshiyori status, I believe is still the owner of Futagoyama name which is currently leant out.

He is, Ichidai-toshiyori do not count. (Kitanoumi owns Onogawa-kabu, no other multiple kabu owners.) But Futagoyama-kabu seems to be in very good and Sumo well knowing hands. Former Dairyu one of only two former Juryo who is an oyakata today -- the other being of course the infamous married-into Miyagino -- which might speak for his worth for the Ozumo community.

Wouldn't it be possible at least in the short term for Kotonishiki to continue borrowing Asakayama even if Kaio went intai while Kaio used his shikona as jun-toshiyori? I don't know what the etiquette and/or rules for that sort of thing are.

Possible: Yes.

BUT there is no precedence. Usually the owner picked up his kabu right at once after retirement. IIRC the Jun-toshiyori years did not count for your "promotion counter" to Shunin and Iin.

However, Kaio is a bit different as his Jun-toshiyori isn't a Jun-toshiyori but a special three years grace period for ozeki (yokozuna have five years). If he would decide to become Kaio-oyakata for a while he'd become senior Toshiyori right away (just like Tochiazuma and Musashimaru).

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Wouldn't it be possible at least in the short term for Kotonishiki to continue borrowing Asakayama even if Kaio went intai while Kaio used his shikona as jun-toshiyori? I don't know what the etiquette and/or rules for that sort of thing are.

Possible: Yes.

BUT there is no precedence. Usually the owner picked up his kabu right at once after retirement. IIRC the Jun-toshiyori years did not count for your "promotion counter" to Shunin and Iin.

However, Kaio is a bit different as his Jun-toshiyori isn't a Jun-toshiyori but a special three years grace period for ozeki (yokozuna have five years). If he would decide to become Kaio-oyakata for a while he'd become senior Toshiyori right away (just like Tochiazuma and Musashimaru).

AFAIK, the grace period for yokozuna and ozeki is to allow a man who doesn't have a myoseki time to get one; I've never heard of a man who already has a myoseki being able to opt to keep his shikona while continuing to rent out his toshiyori name. I don't think it would be allowed.

Orion

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I really think Furikwake has been promised to Takamisakari but he really does not need it right now and meanwhile Asaarashi can keep it for a little while and get some rent money. It's a Takasago Ichimon kabu and I don't see it's going anywhere else. I have no doubt it will go to Takamisakari in the end. As for Maru, it's only a temporary pit stop. Who knows what the next chapter for him.

The next chapter is that his name has been dropped all the way to the bottom of the Kyokai website's oyakata list when they removed Araiso a few days ago...I presume Maru is technically still Iin-equivalent (or, maybe not?), but he's now down with all the other borrowers. Intriguing.

Edited by Asashosakari

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The next chapter is that his name has been dropped all the way to the bottom of the Kyokai website's oyakata list when they removed Araiso a few days ago...I presume Maru is technically still Iin-equivalent (or, maybe not?), but he's now down with all the other borrowers. Intriguing.

Futagodake's official retirement date was November 15 so it is now vacant ostensibly, and Maru officially running out of his five year yokozuna kabu term, he must be receiving the regular privileges of a borrowed kabu holder just like Tochisakai and company. I actually expected this to happen so I wondered why he would have not tried getting a permanent one if he really wanted to stay with the Kyokai forever. I wonder if he regains the former Iin status if he picks up a permanent one in the future (I think it's likely but somehow I get a feeling he won't go out and buy one).

Anyway the next one is Tanigawa on the Christmas Eve so stay tuned if there will be anything interesting to take place with the current crop of loaners as Kotonishiki will need a new one in a couple of months for sure.

Edit: to correct Maru being a yokozuna and five year term for his toshiyori kabu.

Edited by Jonosuke

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AFAIK, the grace period for yokozuna and ozeki is to allow a man who doesn't have a myoseki time to get one; I've never heard of a man who already has a myoseki being able to opt to keep his shikona while continuing to rent out his toshiyori name. I don't think it would be allowed.

Ah... That'd explain why there has been no precedence yet ;-)

(I have always understood (or not, as it seems...) that not owning a kabu was only an optional condition, not a necessary one. But you better not trust me in any questions of any law.)

As for Furiwake, we'll probably have to wait for the 2009 NSK directory to know for sure. Indeed very intriguing.

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Now that the basho is over, I wonder why there is no news on Araiso.

There are more than few people who could use a permanent kabu or even a secure loan.

Kaiho had 5-10 at J5 so he won't fall out yet but it's obvious that he is more likely to fall down than go up. Tanigawa is retiring on Dec 24 so he can take it then or he could try for one more basho but if he waits too long, I am sure someone else will snap it up pretty quick.

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Now that the basho is over, I wonder why there is no news on Araiso.

There are more than few people who could use a permanent kabu or even a secure loan.

Kaiho had 5-10 at J5 so he won't fall out yet but it's obvious that he is more likely to fall down than go up. Tanigawa is retiring on Dec 24 so he can take it then or he could try for one more basho but if he waits too long, I am sure someone else will snap it up pretty quick.

Well, one more month of salary.

I said I will fly to haru if he is still there...if not, no ticket needed. ;-)

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I waited a bit for the dust to settle after Tanigawa's retirement... but yet no new developments on Tanigawa- and Araiso-kabu. They stay vacant for the moment.

For Kaiho at J8 a 5-10 will be enough to stay in juryo, so barring any injuries he'll be still around in March. Flight already booked? ;-)

In order that this post won't be looked at as totally silly and unmotivated, I'll add two links to some other kabu-babu.

Sendagawa gets Takadagawa-beya (maybe the mods could merge that thread in to here?)

A bit on kabu history, where Asashosakari explains the origins of our 105 kabu (better than I would have ever been able to)

Edited by Tamanaogijima

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