Kintamayama

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I looked at the NSK's oyakata list some minutes ago and recognized that Wakatoba (Oshiogawa) moved up above Zaonishiki (Nishikijima). I guess that implicates that he acquired Oshiogawa kabu officially.

Can anyone provide some detailed information? That would be awesome. Thanks in advance!

On the first glance: Yes, he is the owner now. There is a rule that forces retired kabu owners to sell theirs three years after they leave the Kyokai.

After thinking a while about it: I wouldn't be surprised though if that's a "staged" sale (as that of the Onaruto-myoseki to former Kotogaume).

As far as I remember it is Wakakirin, who was supposed to become the heir of former Daikirin, who even gave him the rare "Kirin" part in anticipation of his wunderkind-ness. So don't be surprised if Wakatoba suddenly (ahem...) decides to call it quits in ten or 15 years. At the moment he can collect oyakata years, be promoted to Shunin and Iin and thus get a bit more cash out of it. The big question is: Who does actually control the kabu? It will probably only be answered when Wakakirin retires as active rikishi, not before.

It's a bit like having a car as a teenager. Either you can indeed buy one or you may just use your parents'. Both times your friends will go, "Wow, he's got a car!" But in the latter case you have only got the keys in your hand (the stamped and sealed kabu certificate) and you pay car tax, insurance and fuel (you work as oyakata) but they still own the car (the actual money behind the kabu share). Works perfectly fine until your nicer little sibling makes his driver's license or you fall out with them. Car gone, look for another one!

EDIT: Thou shalt not send commenth without looking for typoth!

Edited by Tamanaogijima

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Nothing personal against Wakatoba but from a point of view of his accomplishments, he doesn't really deserve Oshiogawa Myoseki but lesser men have inherited more prestigeous kabu so no point in crying about this one.

Anyway reflecting Wakatoba getting Oshiogawa, here's the summary:

Current Loan Kabu:

Asakayama by Kaio - Kotonishiki

Ajigawa by Aminishiki - Kobo

Onaruto by Dejima - Buyuzan

Onogawa by Yamahibiki - Shikishima

Sanoyama by Chiyotaikai - Toki

Sekinoto by Fukunohana - Kinkaiyama

Takenawa by Tochinonada - Tochisakae

Tatekawa by Tosanoumi - Kirinishiki

Tateyama by Asahiyama - Ozutsu

Nishiiwa by Wakanosato - Takanotsuru

Nishikijima by Shimotori - Zaonishiki

Futagoyama by Takanohana - Dairyu

Wakafuji by Katsuhikari - Yotsukasa

And the next holder to retire is Furiwake (former Maegashira Asaarashi) sharing my birthdate of July 8. There are some rampant rumours going around that Takamisakari is about to geti this.

Then we have Inagawa who is retiring on September 4. Not certain who is on to this one but we all must know Kotonishiki is running out of his options soon as now we know he didn't get Oshiogawa perhaps Inagawa could be one of his last chances to stay with the Kyokai.

Of course there is another big man looming on the horizon as Muashimaru's reign will be up in November so if he is to be staying with the Kyokai, he will have to go for it but then he is really hiding his cards well so no one knows what he is planning to do.

Another November option is Araiso. Aside from where will his few remaining rikishi (a couple of Sandanme and Jonidan) and one gyoji go, again it's interesting to speculate. It's obviously the ideal time for Musashimaru to carry on with it but we don't know of his intention. If Kotonishiki doesn't get Inagawa, this will be the other candiate.

Of course my preoccupation with Kotonishiki is my feeling that Kaio cannot go on forever and the fact of the matter is he could fold any moment. If he is gung-ho about going for another couple of years though how unlikely it is, Kotonishiki won't give up Asakayama anytime soon but if I were him and want to stay with the Kyokai, I will be looking for a permanent place to park my wheel real soon.

Edited by Jonosuke

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I suspect IF Musashimaru stays with the Kyokai it'll be via Inagawa, what with it already being in Dewanoumi-ichimon.

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And the next holder to retire is Furiwake (former Maegashira Asaarashi) sharing my birthdate of July 8. There are some rampant rumours going around that Takamisakari is about to geti this.

Another November option is Araiso. Aside from where will his few remaining rikishi (a couple of Sandanme and Jonidan) and one gyoji go, again it's interesting to speculate. It's obviously the ideal time for Musashimaru to carry on with it but we don't know of his intention. If Kotonishiki doesn't get Inagawa, this will be the other candiate.

1: I guess Takamisakari will loan Furiwake to Toki. Chiyotaikai's injured body won't be competitive forever and the already mentioned Toki shouldn't rely on Sanoyama for too long.

2. I could imagine that the remaining rikishi and gyoji will end up in Takanohana Beya. In the past, current Araiso fought under the Futagoyama banner, so that would close the circle. By the way, Takanohana Beya doesn't have that many active Rikishi. He'll surely have enough space for three more.

Of course, these are pure speculations. :-)

Edited by Raishu

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Funny, I was wondering just yesterday why the heck Otsukasa wasn't owning a kabu yet... And he bought it out of a different ichimon, too!

At any rate, I'm entirely clueless. Shivare has March 15 as the date he became aware of it, but that's obviously not the real change date. I'd presume that it was sometime before January 23 already, given that Yotsukasa's switch from Hatachiyama to Wakafuji forced Asanosho (from yet another ichimon) out of sumo and the whole event really only makes sense if Otsukasa was already calling the shots.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Googling around, I came across this thread (which appears to be some sort of kabu speculation clearing-house), in which back on Feb 4th (post 27) somebody seems to be posing a guess that Otsukasa may possibly be owning (or borrowing?) the Wakafuji-kabu. Further down in post 362 on March 15th somebody's confirming without source that Otsukasa is indeed the owner, which may be where Shivare also got it (or maybe that's even him posting in that thread).

Oh, and...in post 196 (Feb 13th) somebody is making the interesting claims that the following active rikishi are owning these stocks (in addition to mentioning all the commonly known ones, and also Otsukasa-Wakafuji):

Tamakasuga - Tateyama

Iwakiyama - Sekinoto

Kaiho - Tanigawa

and Kinkaiyama (currently loaning Sekinoto) to take over Inagawa, post-retirement of the current one, I presume.

The very next post asks for sources on the Tamakasuga, Iwakiyama, Otsukasa and Kinkaiyama assertions, but it doesn't seem that any were posted. Although, looking further down (posts 516, 527 from April 1st) people sound rather sure that Iwakiyama has indeed bought Sekinoto, if I'm not totally mistaken...

Not very helpful, I know.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Not very helpful, I know.

It is very helpful. No need to hide your light under a bushel. I didn't know that page or haven't stumbled over it yet (consciously, that is).

Since we know that a) the retired oyakata have to sell their kabu and that b) sales or sales options are carried out when an old oyakata is still active (obviously we Westerners heard just "accidentally" of the Furiwake transfer) these list isn't too far fetched.

And I have been wondering all the time why Asahiyama was still allowed to hold that second Tateyama-kabu and why Tamakasuga still had none... ;-)

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The problem with 2 Channel bulletin board is with its signal to noise ratio. While it attracts some knowlegble people (including actual rikishi), others are plainly garbage and even pornographic. Defintely not suited for weak stomached. More than other places, some are just there to spread fertizilers and manures. You will need to other independent sources to confirm what's posted there.

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Thanks for the hint.

But I would not have used it as official source anyway as it looks pretty sketchy. It seems good to test the depths of the kabu waters, though...

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Kaiho - Tanigawa

He owns it? (Shaking head...)

The current Tanigawa (an elder from Hakkaku) will be 65 in December 2008,

so we can expect Kaiho to retire before hatsu 2009 for sure I guess...

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Kaiho - Tanigawa

The current Tanigawa (an elder from Hakkaku) will be 65 in December 2008,

so we can expect Kaiho to retire before hatsu 2009 for sure I guess...

I think he goes on as long as he could while loaning Tanigawa but he does need to last three more basho which may not be as easy.

Kinkaiyama=Inagawa is apparently a done deal but not sure about Tamakasuga=Tateyama.

I was thinking one point, Tamakasuga can be a good Araiso but we will see in November or before as no one seems to know what will happen to Araiso yet.

Edit: I was also reading the bulletinboard mentioned by Asashosakari's post about Tamakasuga's shisho Kataonami oyakata not doing well physically and Tamakasuga may retire and take over the heya after the last basho. But then it is after the basho now and this did not happen.

So we still don't know what Tamakasuga's Toshiyori situation is.

Incidentally Tamakasuga may be the only rikishi who is not only in Doitsuyama's Sumo Reference database but also in another equally distingushed database.

Edited by Jonosuke

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Edit: I was also reading the bulletinboard mentioned by Asashosakari's post about Tamakasuga's shisho Kataonami oyakata not doing well physically and Tamakasuga may retire and take over the heya after the last basho. But then it is after the basho now and this did not happen.

So we still don't know what Tamakasuga's Toshiyori situation is.

I'm just looking at that board* again now, and somebody even postulated that Kotonishiki would have taken over Kataonami (both kabu and stable, I guess)...that would have been quite a curveball.

Anyway, the reason I'm pulling this thread back up is something else - on that board, there seems to be some confusion over whether Tamarikido is even kabu-eligible because he's of Korean descent. Does anybody know whether he actually holds the Japanese citizenship? I always figured he does, but now I don't know what to think...

* BTW, for Tamanaogijima and others who may want to return to that thread later on: Apparently the board software works such a thread can't have more than 1000 posts, and when it reaches that many posts it either collapses or is automatically flushed (I'm not completely sure)...the linked one is already kabu thread #3 at 2chan, and the first two only display the first and the last post now. Too bad, would have been nice to see how its previous content has held up compared to what has actually happened since then.

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Nothing about that on the Kataonami fan blog...but I'll ask that guy.

http://ameblo.jp/kataonami/

I see Tamanofuji at the Kyokai page http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/ozumo_meikan/kyokai_...ata/oyakata.php

片男波 大造 (かたおなみ) 大野 茂   片男波 玉ノ富士 関脇

Or do I look at the wrong page?

Link please :)

Edited by ilovesumo

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Anyway, the reason I'm pulling this thread back up is something else - on that board, there seems to be some confusion over whether Tamarikido is even kabu-eligible because he's of Korean descent. Does anybody know whether he actually holds the Japanese citizenship? I always figured he does, but now I don't know what to think...

I wouldn't put anything behind that assertion, or question mark rather. The DB has Tamarikido's shusshin as Tokyo, and the heya took in Tamawashi after the introduction of the one-foreigner rule. If Tamarikido hadn't been a citizen by 2004, this would not have been possible.

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Anyway, the reason I'm pulling this thread back up is something else - on that board, there seems to be some confusion over whether Tamarikido is even kabu-eligible because he's of Korean descent. Does anybody know whether he actually holds the Japanese citizenship? I always figured he does, but now I don't know what to think...

I wouldn't put anything behind that assertion, or question mark rather. The DB has Tamarikido's shusshin as Tokyo, and the heya took in Tamawashi after the introduction of the one-foreigner rule. If Tamarikido hadn't been a citizen by 2004, this would not have been possible.

Just to follow up, I've since found (in his ja.wiki profile, go figure) that he's a member of Mindan. All primary web references to his Mindan affiliation are a few years old, but since I couldn't find anything about him naturalizing, I assume he's still "only" a permanent resident of Japan. That likely has some implications for his being counted towards the foreigner limits (namely that he isn't), but I'm pretty sure it's no good for kabu eligibility.

I guess we'll see sometime soon...he's shown to still be competitive in his recent four makushita basho (although at progressively lower levels, as they were all 3-4's), but one of these days the hammer might be coming down. If he's not sticking around for a kabu, I have a hard time imagining him keeping on in low makushita.

Edit: To add something somewhat more on-topic to the thread - in a Yomiuri article about a week ago, Musashimaru said that he hasn't yet made up his mind whether he wants to stay in the Kyokai beyond the expiration of his courtesy kabu in November. I dare day that means he won't (even if he decides he wants to, after all)...all the stuff further up-thread (like Kinkaiyama buying the soon-available Inagawa-kabu) may only be rumours, but it's clear that other candidates are thinking about the subject and planning ahead. Nobody's going to throw a share at Maru in five months just to keep him around, and I highly doubt there's going to be anything available for a last-minute solution.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Just to follow up, I've since found (in his ja.wiki profile, go figure) that he's a member of Mindan. All primary web references to his Mindan affiliation are a few years old, but since I couldn't find anything about him naturalizing, I assume he's still "only" a permanent resident of Japan.

Without having a shred of evidence, I'd say he has Japanese citizenship, and has had that since he entered sumo. He entered way before Tamawashi and I don't think there was another foreigner at Kataonami when he entered. I don't think he is any different than Kinkaiyama, for example. In my experience hunting down the "closeteers" (not talking about the "legit" ones stated as foreigners in their shusshin thingy..), the half- Korean/Chinese and even Filipinos and Brazilians usually have Japanese citizenships since day 1 of their entrance to Sumo. I'm pretty sure Rikidozan did as well- they "hid" their original shusshin not because they didn't have citizenship, but because it was "problematic" in those days. Yokozuna Mienoumi comes to mind as well.

But I have not one shred of evidence to back this up.

Does anyone KNOW if Tamarikidou has Japanese citizenship?? Is there a way to know for sure? Heck, I don't even have him on my "closet" list. I wonder how many more closeteers that I don't know about are out there.. Originally, I got into the closet from this then- reliable source. Tamarikidou is not on it.

Edited by Kintamayama

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A member of Mindan does not mean one has a Korean citizenship as it is only an organized body of ethic Koreans (South) living in Japan. Most of them are either long time residents of Japan or born in Japan as Tamarikido did in Edogawa-ward in Tokyo. Mindan members separate themselves from those of Chosen Renmen which is linked to North Korea incidentally as they are anti-North.

Tamarikido is a third generation Korean Japanese and I have no doubt he has a Japanese citizenship. When one joins the Kyokai, the document they need to bring is their Koseki Tohon (their identification registered at the local Registry showing your linage). You may move from one time or another in Japan but your Tohon record stays with the original address you were registered with regardless of how long you have been away from where you were born and the place has now become a highway or under the sea or house bought by someone else.

Generally you can only be split away from the original Tohon if you marry and establish your own household elsehwere which will be listed in the original Tohon. I have not lived for dozens of years in my original Suginami-ward address in Tokyo but my Tohon record can still be obtained if I go to the Suginami ward office in Ogikubo with a hanko. In Japan whenever one has a financial transaction, one will need to bring your Tohon record.

A Tohon record is not the same as your Jumin-hyo, a cerficate issued by your ward office attesting to the fact you are a resident and living in their ward. You will need this for your passport and national health insurance. It won't be issued unless one lives in the same address for at least three month even if you are a Japanese.

Just bring back the discussion to the original topic, Tamarikido most certainly had the Tohon record when he entered Ozumo and therefor is considered to be a Japanese national as far as the Kyokai is concerned just like Ri who is a sort of Tamarikido junior.

Edited by Jonosuke

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Any chance at all of Musashigawa retiring a few years early and passing on his share to Maru?

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I doubt that Musashigawa would retire for a foreigner when he has 3 former ozekis in his stable. I think Musashimaru enjoyed his oyakata period in Japan, but if he really wanted to stay, he would have made his move for a kabu long before.

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From former comments made by Musashigawa Fujishima is his probable successor.

Furiwake has turned 65 today, so he should be out. If I were Sanoyama I would try to rent that kabu as fast as possible...

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Araiso-kabu might be lended to former Takanotsuru after Wakanosato's retirement.

Right, assuming the aforementioned report is true, that's probably the ultimate destination for Araiso-kabu. But I'm guessing that Wakanosato's retirement is still at least 2-3 years away, which is an eternity in kabu-lending. Over at the 2channel thread they're speculating/hoping/wishing that the kabu will be going to ex-Kotonishiki, who is currently holding Kaio's Asakayama-kabu.

At any rate, I doubt we'll be getting any official confirmation that the kabu is now (or at least starting in November) owned by Kisenosato - and Naruto can't officially own it anyway due to the restriction on multiple-kabu ownership. This seems like it's going to be one of these "widely assumed to be true, but still just a rumour" thing like Dejima's ownership of the Onaruto share. If true, the first indication of its truth will likely indeed be when Wakanosato retires and the kabu goes to Takanotsuru from whoever is holding it at the time.

Edited by Asashosakari

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At any rate, I doubt we'll be getting any official confirmation that the kabu is now (or at least starting in November) owned by Kisenosato - and Naruto can't officially own it anyway due to the restriction on multiple-kabu ownership. This seems like it's going to be one of these "widely assumed to be true, but still just a rumour" thing like Dejima's ownership of the Onaruto share. If true, the first indication of its truth will likely indeed be when Wakanosato retires and the kabu goes to Takanotsuru from whoever is holding it at the time.

Ah... no! After the BOB (big Onaruto babu) I hoped that none of these unclear ownerships would appear.

Oh dear, oh dear... What might be behind such secret mongerings? Taxes? Kyokai politics (but they should know the owner anyway)? Or do they just want to madden the kabu addicts a bit?

Btw, I wonder why no one has picked up the Furiwake-kabu until today... Obviously the pressure has gone now after so many oyakata were forced to retire early.

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