Kintamayama

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You mentioned Azumazeki already has a successor lined up... Who?? Takamisakari, I'm guessing (?)

Also, is Dejima (being former Ozeki) allowed to a jun-toshiyori?

1. I remember a post on this forum saying that Ushiomaru will take over the heya from Azumazeki.

2. Yes, he is (I asked the same question two weeks ago ;-))

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1. I remember a post on this forum saying that Ushiomaru will take over the heya from Azumazeki.

Yep, that's what Azumazeki told a local journalist during the Hawaii jungyo, at least. I intentionally didn't mention a name above ;-) because I'm really not sure whether it'll be Ushiomaru or Takamisakari in the end, but I imagine Azumazeki must be leaning towards Ushiomaru these days or he wouldn't have bothered to make that comment.

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According to a Sports Nippon paper, some heya owning oyakata within Tokitsukaze Ichimon are so concerned about the damage caused to the Ichimon's name, they are calling for a new Ichimon name, replacing Tokitsukaze with another like Isenoumi.

Oyakata within the Ichimon have been distraught over the whole incident and they feel they need to act decisively to restore the former image held by the great yokozuna Futabayama and former ozeki Yutakayama, both served as the chairman of the Kyokai.

Right now it only appears to an opinion shared by certain oyakata so we shall see what happens.

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At some point in this discussion I hoped they would rename Tokitsukaze-kabu into Futabayama-kabu. I'm not really in favor of "Isenoumi ichimon" but Isenoumi is currently their biggest (and only) dog. From what I recall Isenoumi-beya emerged from Nishikijima-beya, the second mother heya in the ichmon. "Nishikijima ichimon" wouldn't sound bad either. But wait: Nishikijima was also a kabu of the expelled one. Hmm.

Tokitsuumi will undoubtely be an oyakata good enough to restore the old glory again; he won't need any of these name changes.

And btw, great analysis by Asashosakari. ;-)

Tanigawa-kabu might be another possible destination for Toki, but it becomes available a little late for the Chiyotenzan scenario, and in the long run this one might be going to Kaiho anyway if he wants it. BTW, I see in the DB that Tanigawa was fighting out of Takasago-beya...how did he end up in a stable that branched out from Kokonoe-beya?

Here I might be able to help: From what I gather from the Japanese wikipedia, Tanigawa-oyakata wanted to start his own heya, but the shisho Takasago[5], the former Asashio Taro III, was against it. So Tanigawa left the heya and joined Kokonoe-beya. Now we switch to my bad memory. Kokonoe-beya isn't exactly known for being a nice place to work (especially under the current 13th Kokonoe, the former Chiyonofuji), and all associated oyakata left together with Hakkaku when he founded his own heya.

And yes, I think Dejima's the Onaruto-owner, too. But many sources are silent about it. (Moto-Kotogaume assumed the kabu before loaners were demoted to Toshiyori. He is still full Iin. Dejima was owner in the mid-1990es, and no sale announcement has come into my sight yet.)

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Kokonoe-beya isn't exactly known for being a nice place to work (especially under the current 13th Kokonoe, the former Chiyonofuji), and all associated oyakata left together with Hakkaku when he founded his own heya.

I am not exactly sure about Tanigawa but the other two oyakata along with Hakkaku were more or less inner deshi of Kitanofuji when he was Izutsu before he briefly merged with Kokonoe when Chiyonoyama died.

I believe when Hakkaku founded his heya, they naturally went with him as Hakkaku was the direct lineage of Kitanofuji. I don't think it was due to anything unpleasant with the current Kokonoe.

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And yes, I think Dejima's the Onaruto-owner, too. But many sources are silent about it. (Moto-Kotogaume assumed the kabu before loaners were demoted to Toshiyori. He is still full Iin. Dejima was owner in the mid-1990es, and no sale announcement has come into my sight yet.)

Yes, I think four of those five "unclear" ownership situations date back to the interim period when loans were officially disallowed and we got symbolic sales instead. Nobody's going to acknowledge at this point that those guys are really renting, not owning. (The fifth case, Kumagatani, is of course complicated by other things.)

Actually, I realized something since my earlier post, in part spurred by Washuyama's question about Dejima's grace period eligibility...you've mentioned before that it's probably not quite proper to take a jun-toshiyori if you already own a real kabu (and I agree with that), but what if they continue to play the "Onaruto is really owned by Kotogaume" charade even after Dejima's retirement? Could be an easy way to buy up to three years of time for everyone involved...

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Actually, I realized something since my earlier post, in part spurred by Washuyama's question about Dejima's grace period eligibility...you've mentioned before that it's probably not quite proper to take a jun-toshiyori if you already own a real kabu (and I agree with that), but what if they continue to play the "Onaruto is really owned by Kotogaume" charade even after Dejima's retirement? Could be an easy way to buy up to three years of time for everyone involved...

This tactic doesn't help the other argument: Dejima loses time (up to three years) in climbing the toshiyori hierarchy as this one starts with the first real kabu.

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This tactic doesn't help the other argument: Dejima loses time (up to three years) in climbing the toshiyori hierarchy as this one starts with the first real kabu.

Hmm, good point. Darn. :-) I suppose they could still employ that tactic in a limited role, though: Unlike other recent rikishi, Dejima can't exactly hang around in Makushita waiting for his kabu to become unoccupied before he retires, so he could perhaps take the jun-yusho to give Kotogaume at least a few months to make other arrangements.

At any rate, the way they've handled the other three cases, Kotogaume could probably switch to a new kabu and still be recognized as owner. Ex-Takamisugi seems to be considered the owner of the Tokiwayama share simply because he was the de facto owner of Fujishima during the no-loans period (even though he has changed kabu twice since then).

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I believe when Hakkaku founded his heya, they naturally went with him as Hakkaku was the direct lineage of Kitanofuji. I don't think it was due to anything unpleasant with the current Kokonoe.

I always had in mind that not only training but also the working conditions in general were quite harsh in Kokonoe-beya. But as I said, given my memory you could call a sieve "hermetically sealed".

This tactic doesn't help the other argument: Dejima loses time (up to three years) in climbing the toshiyori hierarchy as this one starts with the first real kabu.

I'm not sure about this point any more. True for real Jun Toshiyori, but here? Tochiazuma is more or less the same case and he became Iin Taigu Toshiyori right away. They play on the charade, Dejima retires, takes his three years but "suddenly" acquires Onaruto-kabu after twelfe months and Kotogaume taking another one -- nobody will be hurt. It will be intersting to see where Tochiazuma stands when he takes over Tamanoi-kabu to have a precedent.

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Tick, tick, tick...11 more days for Harunoyama...

And a big correction:

I don't really see an immediate need for Inagawa-kabu so that one might enter the overall borrowing "rotation", unless one of Iwakiyama/Kasuganishiki/Otsukasa already requires it in a year. At the very least there aren't any current Dewanoumi-ichimon oyakata who are borrowing from outside and could stand to upgrade to a more stable share.

Since writing that I've realized that I made a pretty bad mistake there by looking only at current sekitori when I said "there's no immediate need" for Inagawa-kabu...because there was Buyuzan, already down in makushita and I just plain forgot about him. Strictly speculation of course, but maybe that's why he continues his makushita free-fall.

Edited by Asashosakari

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And yes, I think Dejima's the Onaruto-owner, too. But many sources are silent about it. (Moto-Kotogaume assumed the kabu before loaners were demoted to Toshiyori. He is still full Iin. Dejima was owner in the mid-1990es, and no sale announcement has come into my sight yet.)

And out of leftfield, there's some resolution to this topic. With Buyuzan taking on the Onaruto-kabu today, ex-Kotogaume is out of a job and leaving the Kyokai. True to form, there's no mention of this being a loan, but thanks to this development I think it's fairly clear that Dejima is still the real owner.

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And yes, I think Dejima's the Onaruto-owner, too. But many sources are silent about it. (Moto-Kotogaume assumed the kabu before loaners were demoted to Toshiyori. He is still full Iin. Dejima was owner in the mid-1990es, and no sale announcement has come into my sight yet.)

And out of leftfield, there's some resolution to this topic. With Buyuzan taking on the Onaruto-kabu today, ex-Kotogaume is out of a job and leaving the Kyokai. True to form, there's no mention of this being a loan, but thanks to this development I think it's fairly clear that Dejima is still the real owner.

Means that he retires after this Basho with 3-4 (Applauding...) ...

but he stays in the Sumo world. Puh....

Mabe Dejima will be the new Musashigawa...

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Kotogaume's departure makes me at least as sad as Buyuzan's intai - hope it wasn't forced upon him.

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Ahh, the joys of the Kyokai administrative rules...Buyuzan's takeover of the Onaruto name (and Kotogaume's retirement) is apparently in effect only from today.

Also, Harunoyama-oyakata has taken on the vacant Takenawa-kabu today. Sports Hochi doesn't mention anything about it being a loan which confuses me a bit, given that the kabu ought to still be owned by Tochinonada. This closes the books on the jun-toshiyori status which was abolished a year ago.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Double post, but this belongs here:

Kasugano beya pair former Komusubi Tochinohana and ex Maegashira 1-Tochisakae retired today.

Tochinohana will assume the Hatachiyama name and Tochisakae will be Takenawa. Youtsukasa who held the Hatachiyama name is switching to Wakafuji. Asanoshou who held Wakafuji is leaving the Sumo world.

Edit: Current Takenawa Oyakata (ex- Harunoyama) is leaving the Sumo world as well.

Edited by Kintamayama

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Takamisakari has acquired the Furiwake kabu, it has been reported.

That's pretty odd to see a sitting oyakata sell his kabu, assuming that's what happened and Sakari isn't just holding a promise of future sale of some kind...

(And this thread goes well together with white wine and this thread...)

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(And this thread goes well together with white wine and this thread...)

Threads now merged for greater comfort of kabu babu posting. Shoo bee doo.

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Threads now merged for greater comfort of kabu babu posting. Shoo bee doo.

Belated thanks. (Neener, neener...)

In actual babu news, Sanoyama-oyakata (ex-Toki, borrowing from Chiyotaikai) has moved from Takasago-beya to Kokonoe-beya as of February 7th.

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Hmmmm, I guess we won't be seeing a "What's in store for Chiyotaikai on 2009(+)?" poll anytime soon. (Neener, neener...)

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Hmmmm, I guess we won't be seeing a "What's in store for Chiyotaikai on 2009(+)?" poll anytime soon. :-P

No. Toki just goes in for a career. He has always been affiliated to the heya of the ichimon's riji. ;-)

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Hmmmm, I guess we won't be seeing a "What's in store for Chiyotaikai on 2009(+)?" poll anytime soon. (Spooky TV program...)

No. Toki just goes in for a career. He has always been affiliated to the heya of the ichimon's riji. (Being unsure...)

Well, that's more or less what I mean. It implies that everyone is quite confident Kokonoe will remain the ichimon riji and that Chiyotaikai is not going anywhere anytimer soon, despite the alarming prospect that a serious injury could spit him out at a moment's notice (okay a 2 basho notice for dear Toki).

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Well, that's more or less what I mean. It implies that everyone is quite confident Kokonoe will remain the ichimon riji and that Chiyotaikai is not going anywhere anytimer soon, despite the alarming prospect that a serious injury could spit him out at a moment's notice (okay a 2 basho notice for dear Toki).

But that's been true ever since Toki borrowed the share last May. I only added that "borrowing from Chiyotaikai" part for context in my above post; I didn't mean to imply that it's a new development.

At any rate, with no kabu available right now I don't think confidence has much to do with it. Kaio's is in use, too, after all. (Spooky TV program...)

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Well, that's more or less what I mean. It implies that everyone is quite confident Kokonoe will remain the ichimon riji and that Chiyotaikai is not going anywhere anytimer soon, despite the alarming prospect that a serious injury could spit him out at a moment's notice (okay a 2 basho notice for dear Toki).

Whoops... I really misunderstood you there.

I guess Toki's biggest fear was Chiyotenzan (being on his last legs and heya mate of the owner of Sanoyama-kabu). Chiyotaikai still has plenty of years to go (Showing respect...) I'd really like to know whether he moved to Kokonoe-beya just because he holds Chiyotaikai's kabu or because he is thankful for them not letting Chiyotenzan get his hands on Sanoyama-kabu...?

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I looked at the NSK's oyakata list some minutes ago and recognized that Wakatoba (Oshiogawa) moved up above Zaonishiki (Nishikijima). I guess that implicates that he acquired Oshiogawa kabu officially.

Can anyone provide some detailed information? That would be awesome. Thanks in advance!

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