Kintamayama

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At this instance three Kabu are vacant, Sanoyama, Asakayama and Wakafuji.

Forgetting Wakafuji for a moment as you never know what former Isegahama is thinking these days, the other two are owned by two ozeki who may have been feeling the change of generation. Of course the Sanoyama holder is thinking of breaking an ozeki record but once that's out of the way....and the other Asakayama holder appears to be breaking one record or another every time he steps on the dohyo.

Just random association....wondering how many times can a man turn his head, pretending he just doesn't see?...

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Toki is now, indeed, Sanoyama Oyakata. At the same time, the Kyokai announced that Nishiiwa Oyakata, former maegashira Wakanojo, has retired at the ripe old age of 34. The Nishiiwa kabu was borrowed from Wakanosato. The plot thinkens. The game of musical kabu continues . . .

Edited by madorosumaru

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At the same time, the Kyokai announced that Nishiiwa Oyakata, former maegashira Wakanojo, has retired at the ripe old age of 34. The Nishiiwa kabu was borrowed from Wakanosato.

Gotta be going to Takanotsuru, one would expect...

Edit: And that was already the second Magaki-beya oyakata in six months who didn't survive the musical chairs. Tough luck...

Edited by Asashosakari

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Nishiiwa was no Shinpan. You mean Takasaki I think, they look a bit similar. (I am not worthy...)

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With Magaki still not well enough to take keiko that leaves only Gojoro. Does he own the Hamakaze name or is that borrowed too?

The banzuke says: He owns it (everyone ahead of now-Nishikijima/Ex-Zaonishiki is an owner, those left from him on the banzuke have only borrowed theirs). But I guess he is only the owner-per-law, not the owner-per-fact. I think it is Magaki who controls the kabu.

On a note: I will update the gallery not before the weekend. This game of musical chairs isn't over yet, and I'm quite confused already.

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At the same time, the Kyokai announced that Nishiiwa Oyakata, former maegashira Wakanojo, has retired at the ripe old age of 34. The Nishiiwa kabu was borrowed from Wakanosato.

Gotta be going to Takanotsuru, one would expect...

Bingo! Takanotsuru is now officially Nishiiwa.

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I'm amazed how logical the kabu re-assignments have been this time around. The initial volley (Shikishima dropping Nishikijima-kabu) was a bit pointless, but I think it's pretty much a wash in the end - he now holds Onogawa which is probably waiting for Kitazakura, and Zaonishiki holds Tokitsuumi's Nishikijima, and I wouldn't want to predict which of the two rikishi will need theirs first. If anything, Zaonishiki is probably able to sleep more soundly as he's holding a kabu from his own ichimon now. Still won't be enough to get him through to age 65, of course. (I am not worthy...)

But other than that, a whole bunch of loaned-out kabu have found their way back to their own ichimon or even own heya. Maybe that's an indication that things are getting a bit tight now.

At any rate, the final tally is something like this, if I'm not totally confused by now:

Back in February, the available kabu were Kaio's Asakayama, Onogawa, Oshiogawa, and Wakafuji. With the three jun-toshiyori finally assigned we're down to just Asakayama and Wakafuji now (and they're both in the same ichimon, too), and have lost one active oyakata for the third spot.

I still do wonder what's going to happen to Wakatoba in the next month or so...given the lack of available options, it's hard to figure him for anything other than Oshiogawa-kabu. That one is still loaned outside (to Takasago's Asanosho), so there probably would be few misgivings about pulling it back for Wakatoba to use. Another wildcard might be Chiyotenzan; Chiyotaikai's Sanoyama-kabu is now back in the ichimon (Toki), so it may not be available quite as easily as before. Of course, same-ichimon-different-heya loans can still end pretty quickly, too, as we've just seen with the unfortunate Wakanojo.

BTW, re-reading the early part of the thread...

But the unwritten rule still is valid (more or less). I can't remember of a sold kabu between two ichimon in the last few years. Changes, yes. Rent-outs, yes. Two hostile acquisitions (Sendagawa > Takadagawa, Kanechika > Miyagino). But no sales.

Is there consensus that Ganyu is truly the owner of Yamahibiki-kabu now, and not still Takanohana? That would be a kabu recently sold from one ichimon to another, and ironically enough it went to Dewanoumi-ichimon. (Also, I wouldn't call Kanechika-Miyagino a hostile acquisition, as it was the rikishi who changed his ichimon, not the kabu.)

Edit: Well, in case Yamahibiki is still owned by Takanohana, that would be another Nishonoseki-ichimon option for Wakatoba. Perhaps Ganyu will be the next oyakata to suddenly retire "to go into business"...

Edited by Asashosakari

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Is there consensus that Ganyu is truly the owner of Yamahibiki-kabu now, and not still Takanohana? That would be a kabu recently sold from one ichimon to another, and ironically enough it went to Dewanoumi-ichimon.

Grrr... I think I've just killed my whole reputation as kabu babbler. You're absolutely right, of course.

Ganyu is the owner (again we only know that he is the owner-per-law), as he is still listed as regular Iin on the banzuke.

Shot to nothing: Takanohana had to sell Yamahibiki because of the "only one kabu per person" rule. He had three possible buyers or buyer groups:

a) an active rikishi

b) a borrowing oyakata

c) Kitanoumi (who owned the ichidai toshiyori only, no other kabu)

While a) and b) would have required -- morally -- the buyer to be within Nishonoseki ichimon (and option b) also the buyer to have some spare money which he obviously has NOT, otherwise he probably wouldn't rent a kabu any more) it is option c) that parks the kabu very well. Takanohana makes friends with the Dewanoumi clan and maybe there's also some "kabu back guarantee" involved when Ganyu retires in 30 years.

But then I still don't understand the Onogawa-Yamahibiki stunt performed by Ganyu some months ago. Kabu with more prestige? Or is the Onogawa name very dear to Kitanoumi?

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Ganyu is the owner (again we only know that he is the owner-per-law), as he is still listed as regular Iin on the banzuke.

Shot to nothing: Takanohana had to sell Yamahibiki because of the "only one kabu per person" rule. He had three possible buyers or buyer groups:

a) an active rikishi

b) a borrowing oyakata

c) Kitanoumi (who owned the ichidai toshiyori only, no other kabu)

While a) and b) would have required -- morally -- the buyer to be within Nishonoseki ichimon (and option b) also the buyer to have some spare money which he obviously has NOT, otherwise he probably wouldn't rent a kabu any more) it is option c) that parks the kabu very well. Takanohana makes friends with the Dewanoumi clan and maybe there's also some "kabu back guarantee" involved when Ganyu retires in 30 years.

But then I still don't understand the Onogawa-Yamahibiki stunt performed by Ganyu some months ago. Kabu with more prestige? Or is the Onogawa name very dear to Kitanoumi?

Ahh, my theory was something completely different: Onogawa was always owned by Kitanoumi, and Ganyu was one of those left-over "secret borrowers" like ex-Miyagino who had been listed as owners over the years (presumably due to the interim "no renting allowed" phase*). They couldn't change his status retroactively (just like they didn't with now-Kumagatani), so he now appears as the owner of Yamahibiki, but it may still be owned by Takanohana in reality.

But, I think you're right that it's somehow related to the new one-kabu-only policy.

Well, all this will clear up within the next 30 years or so when the "Secret Borrowers Club" reaches the mandatory retirement age. :-P

* BTW, at what date was borrowing officially allowed again?

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Ahh, my theory was something completely different: Onogawa was always owned by Kitanoumi, and Ganyu was one of those left-over "secret borrowers" like ex-Miyagino who had been listed as owners over the years (presumably due to the interim "no renting allowed" phase*). They couldn't change his status retroactively (just like they didn't with now-Kumagatani), so he now appears as the owner of Yamahibiki, but it may still be owned by Takanohana in reality.

The Kitanoumi-has-always-been-owner part is a very good theory.

But they could have changed Ganyu's status. I've found an old oyakata.html from 2001/07 on my HD, in which Zaonishiki (then known as Fujigane and part of Kagamiyama-beya) was still Iin. I think the grandfather rulings only apply as long as you don't change your kabu, so he would have been Iin as Onogawa and then Toshiyori as Yamahibiki.

* BTW, at what date was borrowing officially allowed again?

I couldn't find an exact date, but believe it was in the aftermath of the Miyagino takeover when it was clear that the renting market was still vivid. (I just noticed that I added the "symbolic" sales as loans in my changes file, too, so it won't be much of a help.)

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Sorry I just don't have too much time to investigate this but Ganyu does indeed own Yamahibiki. He is the 20th Yamahibiki.

The 19th was curently Futagoyama former Juryo Dairyu of Taiho beya who rented the share.

The 18th was big Maegashira Toyonoumi, initially of Fujishima and later Futagoyama beya but he was also renting it.

And the 17th was Maegashira Kiraiho of Takadagawa beya and 16th was komusubi Maenomori of the same heya, both were renting it.

The rikishi who actually was not renting it and owned it was the 15th Yamahibiki, ozeki Asashio (current Takasago oyakata) who switched to Wakamatsu prior to his Takasago takeover.

The information can be found in Japanese Wikipedia.

I guess the point is that the share never actually belong to Futagoyama nor Takanohana.

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And the last post of mine precisely points out why I shouldn't do what I did as I think my conclusion was wrong.

From what I wrote, it appears that no one after the current Takasago oyakata owned Yamahibiki until Ganyu but that could not be true as I do recall myself Takanohana oyakata indeed "owned" Yamahibiki (he acquired it in March 2003). Kitaonumi oyakata's view was that one generation oyakata such as himself can own another Toshiyori share as that is not considered to have mulitiple shares but when Takahohana also owned Futagoyama then he had to give it up as that made it two.

I remember when Fujishima share went to former Musoyama, Takanohana oyakata was furious as it was done without *his* prior consultation though the former Futagoyama oyakata approved it prior to the transfer.

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* BTW, at what date was borrowing officially allowed again?

I couldn't find an exact date, but believe it was in the aftermath of the Miyagino takeover when it was clear that the renting market was still vivid. (I just noticed that I added the "symbolic" sales as loans in my changes file, too, so it won't be much of a help.)

I just came across this very interesting site yesterday which has (among other things) a chronology of changes to the toshiyori system here. If Babelfish isn't deceiving me, it says that borrowing was allowed again as of September 3rd, 2002, at the same time as the reduction of the jun-toshiyori period from 2 years to 1.

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I just came across this very interesting site yesterday which has (among other things) a chronology of changes to the toshiyori system here. If Babelfish isn't deceiving me, it says that borrowing was allowed again as of September 3rd, 2002, at the same time as the reduction of the jun-toshiyori period from 2 years to 1.

Yes, an excellent site and often visited for checks :-) I haven't found the time yet to babelfish my way through this timeline, but obviously it would be worth the time.

And now that you mention the reduction from two years to one, I can remember remotely, too. Wasn't even the again allowed renting the reason for shortening the JT periods (and not vice versa)?

As for the Yamahibiki question: I found a notice by Masumi Abe on the SML on 20. Sep. 2002, in which he reports that Akinoshima has "acquired" (whatever that means... pretty obscure term in kabu land) Yamahibiki-kabu. Later there was the Fujishima-Yamahibiki switch between Akinoshima and the Hanada family -- not sure though which Takanohana was the legal owner at that point, as it happened in the last months of Futagoyama-beya.

So the Yamahibiki name made its way from Dewanoumi ichimon (Yamahibiki[7] and [8], the latter one was the famous Shakagatake) via Takasago ichimon (from 1965 until 1999) via Nishonoseki (from 1999 until last month) back to Dewanoumi.

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A Honolulu Advertiser article about Azumazeki Oyakata (Takamiyama) includes a statement that he will turn Azumazeki heya over to Ushiomaru when he retires in two years.

Edited by Asojima

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A Honolulu Advertiser article about Azumazeki Oyakata (Takamiyama) includes a statement that he will turn Azumazeki heya over to Ushiomaru when he retires in two years.

Wow. Looks like the tragedy of Sakari's failure to find a spouse runs even deeper.

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And that means Ushiomaru has to retire then...and oh, marriage...

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A Honolulu Advertiser article about Azumazeki Oyakata (Takamiyama) includes a statement that he will turn Azumazeki heya over to Ushiomaru when he retires in two years.

Wow. Looks like the tragedy of Sakari's failure to find a spouse runs even deeper.

I think it's more that Azumazeki probably expects Sakari to do the tarento thing after he's done competing.

Incidentally, my first reaction was, "wait, there's no way Ushiomaru has the necessary bashos together yet", but sure enough he's got 31 sekitori basho now. That kinda snuck up on me...I sure didn't expect that two years ago when his knees were wrecked to the point that he was barely lower-Juryo caliber.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I think it's more that Azumazeki probably expects Sakari to do the tarento thing after he's done competing.

Takamisakari says he can never figure out showbiz types and perhaps insists a bit too hard he never wants to be around them.

My understanding is that after his active sumo life, he wants to take over the apple orchard his parents own back in Aomori.

Unless of course someone comes up to him with a ready made kabu, like marrying into one.

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I distinctly remembering reading on more than one occasion that Takamimockery will definitely be inheriting the heya. There was even a reported instance where he firmly took charge of a training session and was bossing everyone around.

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Well Akebono thought he was taking over the heya not too long ago...and we know what happened to him since.

Can you imagine Sakari vs Akebono on K1?

I thought not.

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I distinctly remembering reading on more than one occasion that Takamimockery will definitely be inheriting the heya.

Sure, but Ushiomaru wasn't kabu-eligible yet at the time...

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I distinctly remembering reading on more than one occasion that Takamimockery will definitely be inheriting the heya.

Sure, but Ushiomaru wasn't kabu-eligible yet at the time...

I also wonder if Takamisakari is actually "smart" and savvy enough to run a stable effectively? He seems to be quite a worrier and he also does and says pretty random and dumb things from time to time. While he has the sumo qulaifications I wonder if he really has the life experience and vision to guide others. Admittedly a good okamisan would help in this respect, but I'm sure Azumazeki would want to make sure that he put his legacy in safe hands.

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I also wonder if Takamisakari is actually "smart" and savvy enough to run a stable effectively?

You are right about that but being smart and having savviness aren't the requirements to run a heya. We can think of a few heya heads much more dumb than Takamisakari in the Kyokai right now. Even a recently retired one like the former Isegahama was any better.

A veteran like Kokonoe or even newer Chiganoura knows their sumo and have enough support surrouding them but they have not really produced a good quantity of quality rikishi.

I always thought Takanohana should have much better success since his takeover but he has done zilch so far when you compare him to somelike Sakaigawa or Oneo or Kise.

Edited by Jonosuke

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I always thought Takanohana should have much better success since his takeover but he has done zilch so far when you compare him to somelike Sakaigawa or Oneo or Kise.

Perhaps he should be looking at recruiting a college athlete to help kickstart his heya?

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