Kintamayama

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Man, this is true 義理...

Kobo=> Futagoyama

pretty impressive :-)

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Tanigawa Oyakata (ex-Shikishima) has flipped to Ajigawa.

Back-dated to the 10th. Will they ever release one of these on a same-day basis again?

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I don't think it's official yet.

Quicker than I thought. Announced today (edit: the kabu change, that is, no move yet), back-dated to the 7th, borrowing from Takanohana. Good for Kobo.

And the inevitable move to Takanohana-beya has been confirmed today at the Tatsunami Ichimon meeting. The papers will be sealed when Miyagino Oyakata finishes reflecting on July 26th. "We're all under the same Kyokai roof so I won't be doing anything different. I'll be happy when it happens," said Futagoyama Oyakata. "I'll talk when the time comes," said Takanohana, being his usual self.

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And the inevitable move to Takanohana-beya has been confirmed today at the Tatsunami Ichimon meeting. The papers will be sealed when Miyagino Oyakata finishes reflecting on July 26th. "We're all under the same Kyokai roof so I won't be doing anything different. I'll be happy when it happens," said Futagoyama Oyakata. "I'll talk when the time comes," said Takanohana, being his usual self.

Ex-Kobo has officially moved to Takanohana-beya today.

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Former Wakatoba, Oshiogawa left the Kyokai due to what they announced as a personal reason, making the share vacant but snapped just as quickly by Takekaze.

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Former Wakatoba, Oshiogawa left the Kyokai due to what they announced as a personal reason, making the share vacant but snapped just as quickly by Takekaze.

Has Takekaze retired, or is he owning the toshiyori while active?

Presumably then, the toshiyori was still controlled by previous owner Daikirin, albeit nominally owned by Wakatoba. With Daikirin's recent death, Wakatoba suddenly finds himself out of luck and a job when the toshiyori is put up for sale.

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Former Wakatoba, Oshiogawa left the Kyokai due to what they announced as a personal reason, making the share vacant but snapped just as quickly by Takekaze.

Thanks for the update.

There's something I'd like to ask:

If an employed/former oyakata passes away, who will become the owner of the share? The family, I guess (assuming the oyakata does not mention Rikishi X in his will to become owner of kabu Y).

And since the family members are not NSK insiders, they must sell the share right away (according to the rule).

Is that pattern applicable to the Wakatoba-Takekaze case? That "personal-reason-statement" is the oldest story in the book, IMHO.

Corrections of my poor transcription are appreciated. (Weeping...)

Edited by Raishu

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An active rikishi can own a Toshiyori share - for instance Kaio has one as well as Tosanoumi. In the olden days there were active rikishi who was also a Toshiyori (i.e. oyakata) at the same time though they are not allowing it at the moment but I don't believe it is written down forbidding it. In that case someone like Kotonowaka did not have to retire to take over Sadogatake Beya. Anyway an active rikishi can simply rent it to a qualifying retired rikishi.

If a Toshiyori share owning oyakata dies, his share is considered to be just like anything else he owned like house, land, bank account or dog, it become a a part of the family inheritance. The person who becomes the legal holder of Toshiyori share will control it. Obviously only qualifying former sekitori can use it so it will be either sold or be rented.

A typical example of this is Otake share. Former Yokozuna Taiho had it and presumably he "gave" it to his daughter. She married Takatoriki and he became Otake oyakata and inherited it after adopted by Taiho legally (so Takatoriki's family name even changed). After Takatoriki separated himself from Otake Beya and he again legally voided the relationship (as Taiho's adopted son) and divorced his daughter. As the share was never bought, he never had the full title to it so he cannot rent or sell it to anyone and the share went back to Taiho's daughter again. Whoever is taking over Otake Toshiyori will be either paying a rent money to Taiho's daughter or must buy it from her. I believe his daughter has up to five years or so to sell it.

It appears to me sooner or later Musashimaru may want to buy a share from someone as as a former yokozuna, it's kind of embarrassing to remain as a mere rank and file oyakata for the rest of his working life.

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If an employed/former oyakata passes away, who will become the owner of the share? The family, I guess (assuming the oyakata does not mention Rikishi X in his will to become owner of kabu Y).

And since the family members are not NSK insiders, they must sell the share right away (according to the rule).

My understanding is that the 3-year grace period that applies to retired oyakata also goes for their heirs.

Is that pattern applicable to the Wakatoba-Takekaze case?

Sort of. It has been more than 3 years since the late Oshiogawa's retirement so technically Wakatoba was made the "owner" for Kyokai purposes back in 2008, but Takekaze has presumably been the actual owner for a while already. If Wakatoba's sudden retirement is more than just coincidence, then it's probably the case that this charade was impossible to continue now, or Takekaze would have risked losing his ownership for good. (By civil law, I mean, not Kyokai regulations.) Or maybe I'm completely off; I sure didn't expect this development.

The interesting follow-up question is why Wakatoba has gone altogether and didn't just revert back to loaner status, especially given that he's in the same stable as Takekaze. Maybe that's not possible anymore, at least not officially? (There were those stories of Takamisakari buying Furiwake and Kisenosato/Naruto buying Araiso even when the current holder wasn't retired yet...hmm.)

A typical example of this is Otake share. Former Yokozuna Taiho had it and presumably he "gave" it to his daughter. She married Takatoriki and he became Otake oyakata and inherited it after adopted by Taiho legally (so Takatoriki's family name even changed). After Takatoriki separated himself from Otake Beya and he again legally voided the relationship (as Taiho's adopted son) and divorced his daughter. As the share was never bought, he never had the full title to it so he cannot rent or sell it to anyone and the share went back to Taiho's daughter again. Whoever is taking over Otake Toshiyori will be either paying a rent money to Taiho's daughter or must buy it from her. I believe his daughter has up to five years or so to sell it.

I would be very surprised if that's the case, at least in the eyes of the Kyokai. Ex-Takatoriki may not be the de facto owner of the share and in reality it will be up to Taiho and his daughter to decide who gets it next, but he's almost certainly the de iure owner and if he decided to be a jerk he could exercise all the ownership rights that go with that. Otherwise we never would have had the Tatsunami/Annenyama-Asahiyutaka lawsuit.

Edit: Also, Wakatoba's exit notwithstanding (he was one of my favourites after all), I'm happy to hear that Takekaze has a share now. By all reports he's one of the true students of the game, and might very well become a part of the future rejuvenation of Ozumo if he can transfer that knowledge from theory to practice.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Thank you Jonosuke and Asashosakari for your comprehensive posts ! (Weeping...)

It appears to me sooner or later Musashimaru may want to buy a share from someone as as a former yokozuna, it's kind of embarrassing to remain as a mere rank and file oyakata for the rest of his working life.

I thought so, too.

Luckily, the Sendagawa share has not been sold yet and Kiyomigata will become open in 01/11, so Musashimaru might be interested in buying one of these two.

The interesting follow-up question is why Wakatoba has gone altogether and didn't just revert back to loaner status, especially given that he's in the same stable as Takekaze. Maybe that's not possible anymore, at least not officially?

That's a good question.

Even if it is forbidden to become the loaner of a kabu which you have owned before, they could have arranged a swap with someone else (p.e.: ex-Tamarikido switches to Oshiogawa -> ex-Wakatoba becomes Araiso). Or do you mean that once you've become an official owner you can't get back to loaner status generally?

Maybe they've already started to prepare some further kabu swappings (peering into Iwakiyama's / Futeno's direction and even Tamanoshima might be on the verge of dropping to Makushita) and Wakatoba simply dropped off the kabu-chessboard without a chance for a longer stint in the NSK.

Edited by Raishu

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Even if it is forbidden to become the loaner of a kabu which you have owned before, they could have arranged a swap with someone else (p.e.: ex-Tamarikido switches to Oshiogawa -> ex-Wakatoba becomes Araiso). Or do you mean that once you've become an official owner you can't get back to loaner status generally?

I have no idea what I meant. (Weeping...) I really don't know; it's well possible that you can't "sell" your share at all without leaving the Kyokai at the same time. It would explain why they were so hush-hush about the Sakari and Kise deals, neither of which was officially acknowledged by the Kyokai at the time.

Maybe they've already started to prepare some further kabu swappings (peering into Iwakiyama's / Futeno's direction and even Tamanoshima might be on the verge of dropping to Makushita) and Wakatoba simply dropped off the kabu-chessboard without a chance for a longer stint in the NSK.

That's probably right, even if the potential details are quite murky right now. My first guess just now was that Takekaze's kabu will be going to his Nichidai buddy Buyuzan (currently parked in Iwakiyama's share), but of course that's some faulty recollection on my part and Buyuzan actually attended Meiji University. D'oh. In short, I don't have a clue...Tamanoshima makes sense, but that seems a little too proactive. Other than that there isn't really anyone in Nishonoseki-ichimon who's in need soon, and I don't think they would sacrifice an active oyakata for a cross-ichimon loan.

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Possibly you are reading too much into Wakatoba leaving the Kyokai altogether. It may simply be that he left the Kyokai for a family reason, nothing much to do with the Kyokai business. As Oguruma said he was told of Wakatoba's intention back in June so this is something Wakatoba must have given a good deal of time. He is one of those guys who were never spectacular but is a good all around human being and would have made a good coach so it is a loss to the Kyokai but Takekaze is well versed and intelligent so the share went to one of good men in Ozumo. However I still think the destiny of Oshiogawa resides with Tamanoshima.

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Possibly you are reading too much into Wakatoba leaving the Kyokai altogether. It may simply be that he left the Kyokai for a family reason, nothing much to do with the Kyokai business. As Oguruma said he was told of Wakatoba's intention back in June so this is something Wakatoba must have given a good deal of time.

That's the other alternative...Wakatoba wanted to get completely out of sumo for some reason*, and Takekaze simply jumped at the sudden opportunity to buy a share. Was Wakatoba only staying in for the sake of his former shisho? Perhaps... It's hard to believe there isn't some connection to moto-Daikirin's death here, the timing is just too weird.

Of course everything's complicated by the fact that for the longest time everybody thought Wakatoba was only holding the share in escrow for Daikirin's real favourite son Wakakirin, and then that possibility was turned upside-down a couple of years ago...well. Daikirin didn't seem like a guy who was particularly wedded to the monetary value of his kabu (judging from his very early retirement), so maybe he allowed Wakatoba to get the share on the cheap a few years ago, and the general assumption that it wasn't a "real" transfer was wrong after all. (Weeping...)

* Surely not gambling? (The question has to be asked nowadays...)

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Everything's possible.

Maybe it's just the "**** ya all, got better things to do with my life" -personal reason. Who knows.

There are enough reasons to leave. Maybe those who see a successful future outside of Sumo prefer that.

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In one of the hairiest moves ever recorded in Sumo, Ex-Wakanoyama also known as Ohairyone and current Yamawake oyakata has left the Kyokai today. His heyamate Sekinoto (ex-Buyuuzan also known as Imevenhairierthanthou) has assumed the vacated Yamawake name. Then another hairy guy, ex-Touki, vacated his Asakayama name and assumed the hitherto vacant Oshiogawa name. Wakanoyama was a ringside shinpan, and his place will be taken by Fujishima (ex-Musouyama), who is returning to shinpan duty.

Edited by Kintamayama

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In one of the hairiest moves ever recorded in Sumo, Ex-Wakanoyama also known as Ohairyone and current Yamawake oyakata has left the Kyokai today. His heyamate Sekinoto (ex-Buyuuzan also known as Imevenhairierthanthou) has assumed the vacated Yamawake name. Then another hairy guy, ex-Touki, vacated his Asakayama name and assumed the hitherto vacant Oshiogawa name. Wakanoyama was a ringside shinpan, and his place will be taken by Fujishima (ex-Musouyama), who is returning to shinpan duty.

This game of musical chairs doesn't inspire confidence that Kaio will make his kachi-koshi in Aki.

Edit: or that Iwakiyama will be ever returning to the dohyo, seeing as how he is the Sekinoto owner.

Edited by ryafuji

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In one of the hairiest moves ever recorded in Sumo, Ex-Wakanoyama also known as Ohairyone and current Yamawake oyakata has left the Kyokai today. His heyamate Sekinoto (ex-Buyuuzan also known as Imevenhairierthanthou) has assumed the vacated Yamawake name. Then another hairy guy, ex-Touki, vacated his Asakayama name and assumed the hitherto vacant Oshiogawa name.

Another retirement from way out in left field. I'm beginning to wonder if anybody really owns their toshiyori at all! Did Wakanoyama ever actually own Yamawake? Does Buyuzan own it now? If not, then who?

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In one of the hairiest moves ever recorded in Sumo, Ex-Wakanoyama also known as Ohairyone and current Yamawake oyakata has left the Kyokai today. His heyamate Sekinoto (ex-Buyuuzan also known as Imevenhairierthanthou) has assumed the vacated Yamawake name. Then another hairy guy, ex-Touki, vacated his Asakayama name and assumed the hitherto vacant Oshiogawa name. Wakanoyama was a ringside shinpan, and his place will be taken by Fujishima (ex-Musouyama), who is returning to shinpan duty.

Looks like Fujishima gave his duty to his mate who could make a bit more money like that?

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Another retirement from way out in left field. I'm beginning to wonder if anybody really owns their toshiyori at all! Did Wakanoyama ever actually own Yamawake? Does Buyuzan own it now? If not, then who?

FWIW, Buyuzan's officially listed as an owner now. Given that the last pre-Wakanoyama owner has been dead for seven years and was from a different stable it's probably unlikely that the heirs are calling shots here, so if I had to guess I'd get in line with ilovesumo's idea that it's Musoyama at the steering wheel. But who knows nowadays...maybe Wakanoyama just wants to do something else, maybe he needed money, whatever. I don't like this trend of all my former underdog favourites making surprise exits, however. (Enjoyable TV program...) (I'll have to start worrying about Tochisakae now.*)

Oddly enough, this is not the first time that Musoyama is pressed into emergency shimpan duty. He also took over in 2006 for Hatachiyama (ex-Hokutenyu), two months before he passed away.

* Okay, realistically I should probably worry about Kinkaiyama first, what with him using Futeno's share and the Dewanoumi group already not having enough to go around, but he wasn't one of my underdog favourites, so...

Edit: And of course Kasuganishiki's a Dewanoumi-ichimon guy, as well (and in Tochisakae's stable even, ack)...does that group have anybody left who isn't retired or about to be so? Geez.

Edited by Asashosakari

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Edit: And of course Kasuganishiki's a Dewanoumi-ichimon guy, as well (and in Tochisakae's stable even, ack)...does that group have anybody left who isn't retired or about to be so? Geez.

The next Oyakata to retire is Kiyomigata from Dewanoumi Ichimon's Mihogaseki Beya, which only has Aran as Sekitori now. So that one might be free for members of the Dewanoumi ichimon. 2012 Iwatomo will turn 65 and could make room for another Kasugano man.

I wonder who will take over Mihogaseki Beya? The share will be free in three years, and all possible successors have left the stable already.

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The next Oyakata to retire is Kiyomigata from Dewanoumi Ichimon's Mihogaseki Beya, which only has Aran as Sekitori now. So that one might be free for members of the Dewanoumi ichimon. 2012 Iwatomo will turn 65 and could make room for another Kasugano man.

FWIW, Iwatomo's retirement will mark the start of a huge run of scheduled retirements (see bottom of this old post)...after that point there probably won't be too many fights for available shares, it's getting to October 2012 that's the problem. (Enjoyable TV program...)

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FWIW, Buyuzan's officially listed as an owner now. Given that the last pre-Wakanoyama owner has been dead for seven years and was from a different stable it's probably unlikely that the heirs are calling shots here, so if I had to guess I'd get in line with ilovesumo's idea that it's Musoyama at the steering wheel. But who knows nowadays...maybe Wakanoyama just wants to do something else, maybe he needed money, whatever.

Yes, I'm sure he actually wanted to leave, I can't believe he would simply be shown to the door in favour of Buyuzan. Even if Musoyama's calling the shots with this toshiyori, the only connection I see between him and Buyuzan is that both were ex-university rikishi, and even then in different universities. Maybe it was health reasons - Wakanoyama suffered quite badly from diabetes at one time, if I remember correctly.

I don't like this trend of all my former underdog favourites making surprise exits, however. (Matrix...) (I'll have to start worrying about Tochisakae now.*)

* Okay, realistically I should probably worry about Kinkaiyama first, what with him using Futeno's share and the Dewanoumi group already not having enough to go around, but he wasn't one of my underdog favourites, so...

Edit: And of course Kasuganishiki's a Dewanoumi-ichimon guy, as well (and in Tochisakae's stable even, ack)...does that group have anybody left who isn't retired or about to be so? Geez.

On the subject of those in danger, until recently I would have said ex-Kirinishiki was next in the erm, firing line, for want of a better phrase. He's been borrowing the same toshiyori, Tatekawa, since he retired in 1995! But owner Tosanoumi is hurtling towards 40 and looked like he was going to spend the rest of his active days in Juryo, for as long as he could hang on. Now he's back in Makuuchi, albeit due to the crazy Nagoya/Aki banzuke situation, so hopefully both he and Kirinishiki might have a while left yet.

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On the subject of those in danger, until recently I would have said ex-Kirinishiki was next in the erm, firing line, for want of a better phrase. He's been borrowing the same toshiyori, Tatekawa, since he retired in 1995! But owner Tosanoumi is hurtling towards 40 and looked like he was going to spend the rest of his active days in Juryo, for as long as he could hang on. Now he's back in Makuuchi, albeit due to the crazy Nagoya/Aki banzuke situation, so hopefully both he and Kirinishiki might have a while left yet.

And Isenoumi turns 65 on the Monday after next year's Aki basho, which could provide for the most convenient succession ever. No banzuke mess, no interim kabu, no mid-basho retirement, just Tosanoumi being a rikishi on senshuraku Sunday and a shisho the next day.

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Edit: And of course Kasuganishiki's a Dewanoumi-ichimon guy, as well (and in Tochisakae's stable even, ack)...does that group have anybody left who isn't retired or about to be so? Geez.

The next Oyakata to retire is Kiyomigata from Dewanoumi Ichimon's Mihogaseki Beya, which only has Aran as Sekitori now. So that one might be free for members of the Dewanoumi ichimon. 2012 Iwatomo will turn 65 and could make room for another Kasugano man.

I wonder who will take over Mihogaseki Beya? The share will be free in three years, and all possible successors have left the stable already.

Now that Muso looks like Musashigawa's successor, there might be an other Musashigawa-man to do so.

Dejima? I'd say definetly Shisho-material, as well as Buyuzan.

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