Kintamayama

Latest kabu-babu changes

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Sekinoto Oyakata, the former Asanoshou, has switched to the Oshiogawa name.

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Hmm, Kinkaiyama to take over Sekinoto, I guess? Otherwise this seems to be pretty pointless...a Takasago-ichimon oyakata changing from a borrowed Dewanoumi kabu to a borrowed Nishonoseki kabu.

Edited by Asashosakari

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This Dewanoumi ichimon really won't sell any of their kaby any more... I guess the loss of Fujishima some decades ago has caused a severe trauma to the ichimon's soul... :-)

Good for Kinkaiyama if that's the way thing will run, though. At least then he will be Sekiwa... oh, wait.

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So let's review the current situation:

We have four vacant Myosekis:

1. Asakayama held by Kaio

2. Sekinoto held by former Fukunohana

3. Onogawa held by Kintanoumi oyakata

4. Wakafuji held by former Kiyokuni

There are 10 Myosekis currently on loan:

1. Sanoyama by Chiynotaikai to Zaonishiki

2. Shiratama by former Kotozakura to Kototsubasa

3. Oshiogawa by former Daikirin to Asanosho

4. Takenawa by Tochinonada to Kotonishiki

5. Tatekawa by Tosanoumi to Kirinishiki

6. Tateyama by Asahiyama oyakata to Ozuchi

7. Nishiiwa by Wakanosato to Wakanojo

8. Nishikijima by Tokitsuumi to Shikishima

9. Hatachiyama by Tochinohana to Yotsukasa

10. Futagoyama by Takanohana oyakata to Dairyu

Two one generation toshiyori:

1. Kitanoumi

2. Takanohana

One former yokozuna with a limited term:

1. Musashimaru (expires on November 15, 2008)

Four Jyun Toshiyoris with one year term (up to five but the position has been abolished)

1. Toki with term expiriing on May 7 2007

2. Takanotsuru with term expiring on May 18 2007

3. Kinkaiyama with term expiring on May 21 2007

4. Harunoyama with term expiring on November 19 2007

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Guess this question had been answered often enough, but I still don't know it...

If Chiyotaikai or Kaio for example retire and need their kabu back- what happens with the other Oyakata?

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Guess this question had been answered often enough, but I still don't know it...

If Chiyotaikai or Kaio for example retire and need their kabu back- what happens with the other Oyakata?

"If it doesn't fit, you have to quit."

The other oyakata has to leave unless he finds another kabu. Last example was Hamakaze[19], the former Misugisato. It was reported that he wanted to leave and open his own business, but I don't believe that story. Why? Because at the very same time the current Hamakaze[20], the former Gojoro, faced the end of his Jun Toshiyori term with no other kabu in sight.

Kaio's Asakayama-kabu is vacant for a year now, and nobody is insane enough to rent it any more. Former Tomonohana, the last leaseholder, got rid of it as soon as he could.

Chiyotaikai's Sanoyama-kabu is in the hands of the active record leaseholder, the former Zaonishiki. It is his seventh. He is turns 55 this year and will probably need some more until he reaches the 65.

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Kinkaiyama gets Sekinoto.

Someone got it right back in February..

Edited by Kintamayama

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And how about Toki and Takanotsuru? Did they get any kabu or they are out?

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Sekinoto, Zenjimoto, Sekitoto - all the same to me...

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And how about Toki and Takanotsuru? Did they get any kabu or they are out?

Nothing reported about them yet and 12 days to go.

But no reports doesn't automatically mean that there have been no backstage negotiations and arrangements yet. I wouldn't be too surprised if came up with a solution right on May 31st (going with the old rule of thumb "the quieter they are, the better is their arrangement").

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But no reports doesn't automatically mean that there have been no backstage negotiations and arrangements yet. I wouldn't be too surprised if came up with a solution right on May 31st (going with the old rule of thumb "the quieter they are, the better is their arrangement").

And of course, sometimes the silence just means that somebody else is still making arrangements, namely the guy who needs to vacate whatever toshiyori Toki/Takanotsuru are going to take.

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And of course, sometimes the silence just means that somebody else is still making arrangements, namely the guy who needs to vacate whatever toshiyori Toki/Takanotsuru are going to take.

Indeed, indeed.

I guess in Toki's case it could be Furiwake (former Asaarashi), who is with Takasago-beya and will turn 64 in two months.

Takanotsuru has a bigger problem, though. The next oyakata out of Nishonoseki-ichimon to retire is Araiso (former Futagotake), who is also 63. Problem here: He is a heya owner. But with only 3 lower division rikishi and one yobidashi a merger scenario might not be a too wacky one. And selling his kabu to Takanotsuru and the facilities should easily compensate the two lost years for his full pension entitlement as oyakata; he still would spend his retirement years with a "little" wealth.

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I wonder how does it feel to get a kabu? Must be a feeling of satisfaction. "I have now become a kabu owner in sumo, my future is financially and occupationally secured". Then depending on your passion for sumo, your ability to coach, your interest in bringing up new rikishi, your interest in drinking all days long and not giving shit about lower rankers who don't bring money, you can become a bad oyakata or a good oyakata. But the kabu moment was be special. Hired kabu must feel less so and it has stress factor and it just doesn't feel like it is yours. Kind of like eating can food instead of I can make my own food-food which is delicious because of self-involvement and so.

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I guess in Toki's case it could be Furiwake (former Asaarashi), who is with Takasago-beya and will turn 64 in two months.

Concerning the fact that I'm not that experienced in kabu-trading, wouldn't be Tanigawa (former Shiratayama, Hakkaku-beya) also an alternative for Toki? The kabu is within the same Ichimon, so will he have a chance to buy it from the current holder??

A general question: A kabu buy can only occur within the same Ichimon, and a kabu loan can be arranged between the members of different Ichimons? Is that right?

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Concerning the fact that I'm not that experienced in kabu-trading, wouldn't be Tanigawa (former Shiratayama, Hakkaku-beya) also an alternative for Toki? The kabu is within the same Ichimon, so will he have a chance to buy it from the current holder??

He surely has chances. But he has no time. At the end of this month he must have a kabu or retire. (Or at least have brought underway some change to happen in June. I guess the Kyokai will be lenitent some weeks.)

A general question: A kabu buy can only occur within the same Ichimon, and a kabu loan can be arranged between the members of different Ichimons? Is that right?

No. Yes.

In former times it was an unwritten rule that kabu stayed within the heya, and only in "emergencies" are given to another heya in the ichimon.

With the rising life expectancy the shortage of kabu increased, and became pretty valuable. Nowadays they are almost like every other company share. They are sold to the most bidding one. Almost because they must not be sold to an outsider. But some "outsiders" (wifes, children, siblings of the holder) can inherit them.

Edited by Tamanaogijima

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Thanks for the quick reply Tamanaogijima!!

Everything sounds plausible. The higher you bet, the more you get.

I couldn't even imagine myself, that kabus can only stay within the same Ichimon, but I guess somebody told me so. A good thing for Takadagawa beya. (Sign of approval...)

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I couldn't even imagine myself, that kabus can only stay within the same Ichimon, but I guess somebody told me so. A good thing for Takadagawa beya. (Sign of approval...)

Not only for them. In general for every ichimon except Dewanoumi. They are the most powerful and can only lose in this game. No wonder that the 8th Rijicho Sakaigawa tried to abandon the kabu trade. Result: He wasn't elected again. One of the protesters against his vision was -- Takadagawa.

But the unwritten rule still is valid (more or less). I can't remember of a sold kabu between two ichimon in the last few years. Changes, yes. Rent-outs, yes. Two hostile acquisitions (Sendagawa > Takadagawa, Kanechika > Miyagino). But no sales. Generally this happens only when the sekitori of a "monster heya" suddenly retire one after the other; the last instance was in the mid-90's, when Futagoyama-beya was at its peak.

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Okay, thanks for the explanation. (Sign of approval...)

Concerning Takanotsuru: If he can't arrange a kabu until the 31st of May in his Ichimon, would it not be a solution to pick up one of the three vacant kabus, eventhough they are not "placed" in the Nishonoseki group??

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Okay, thanks for the explanation. (Sign of approval...)

Concerning Takanotsuru: If he can't arrange a kabu until the 31st of May in his Ichimon, would it not be a solution to pick up one of the three vacant kabus, eventhough they are not "placed" in the Nishonoseki group??

I'll just quote from Tamanaogijima elsewhere. :-(

Kaio's Asakayama-kabu is vacant for a year now, and nobody is insane enough to rent it any more. Former Tomonohana, the last leaseholder, got rid of it as soon as he could.
Nishikijima-kabu is owned by Tokitsuumi. I guess this (or one of the next basho) will be his last try to reach Komusubi. He's turning 34 this year, suffers from various injuries and may well call it quits after a devastating make-koshi or demotion to Juryo. His bad 0-4 start probably frightened the hell out of Shikishima.

So it's a bit dangerous to rent one of those two, and may turn out to be only a very short-term solution. The third one is Wakafuji-kabu owned by the last Isegahama, and I don't even know where to start there. (Whistling...) Let's just say the guy is a bit, umm, complicated, and making even a lease deal with him may not be so easy. If you're interested in the back story, just do a search on "Isegahama" within Ozumo Discussions.

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Seriously though, even if Kaio retired now he would have three years before he has to take up Asakayama right? So he could still lease it to Toki or takanotsuru. Plus how old is Tomozuna? Maybe Kaio will take over the heya and that name?

Tomozuna will be 55 years old on June 12 so he still has 10 more years to go before his retirement.

If Kaio goes with three years as an ozeki toshiyori, then I believe he will have to give up his Asakayama as the kyokai now has a rule that one can only own one Toshiyori share. Though this rule does not appear to apply to Futagoyama even though I think it's owned by Takaohana and Tateyama owned by Asahiyama.

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If Kaio goes with three years as an ozeki toshiyori, then I believe he will have to give up his Asakayama as the kyokai now has a rule that one can only own one Toshiyori share. Though this rule does not appear to apply to Futagoyama even though I think it's owned by Takaohana and Tateyama owned by Asahiyama.

I'm no expert, but given that Kaio's ozeki toshiyori would have a limited time span, might they not allow the loan of Asakayama? Kaio would own Asakayama and loan it out, while the Kaio ozeki toshiyori status is almost like he is loaning it from the Kyokai. Thus, he would never own two kabu that he could sell/rent to others, only one. The rule is to stop people hoarding kabu and creating a power base for an individual.

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If Kaio goes with three years as an ozeki toshiyori, then I believe he will have to give up his Asakayama as the kyokai now has a rule that one can only own one Toshiyori share. Though this rule does not appear to apply to Futagoyama even though I think it's owned by Takaohana and Tateyama owned by Asahiyama.

The real ichidai toshiyori don't count in this rule. That's why Takanohana and Kitanoumi can hold Futagoyama and Onogawa, respectively. Asahiyama's second toshiyori still puzzles me a bit. Current Tateyama[14] cannot be the owner himself, as he is listed among the loaners on the banzuke. Asahiyama was the predecessing Tateyama[13], so there can't be a "dummy" holder between either.

As for Kaio: Maybe his 3-year toshiyori wouldn't count in this rule, too. But as I recall it is considered to be not very "graceful" to pick up a jun toshiyori when you have a real one already, and jun toshiyori aren't added to your promotion counter (Toshiyori > Shunin > Iin) either.

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Well, only two days to go and no news at all about them. maybe we have to wait until thusday night to read the news. :-)

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Sanoyama Oyakata (ex Zaounishiki) has switched to Nishikijima today.

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Sanoyama Oyakata (ex Zaounishiki) has switched to Nishikijima today.

Uh...

Randomly thought-of possibilities, in rough likelihood of probability:

- This one's for Toki (same ichimon)

- Chiyotenzan is retiring as of tomorrow (it's owned by Chiyotaikai)

- Asanosho (same ichimon again) is vacating Oshiogawa-kabu as of tomorrow for Wakatoba, and switching to Sanoyama

BTW, Moti...more generic thread title, please? (Sigh...)

Edited by Asashosakari

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