Nihongo - Japanese

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

Japanese language is luring, multi-faceted, difficult, easy, challenging, funny and many other attributes too can be used to describe it. One of the main passions of mine which do not involve physical activity. Kanji ability as well as speaking/listening have gradually gotten better. Still long way to go and still studying Japanese is more and more fun. There are millions of sources for Japanese language but as this is sumoforum and sumo is Japanese, it is convenient to have one Japanese language thread here too. I will update this more or less regularly, sometimes longer breaks, sometimes daily. Whatever comes to mind. Basically it is to my own amusement too but of course the more input from native Japanese speakers or any other Japanese language students, the merrier the thread will become.

Doitsuyama had written a wonderful series of sumo words' meaning in German on the late German sumoforum. There were all kimarite explained as well as ranks and participants. Something similar could be compiled here too in English. However, the topics covered will be from any area of life and from elementary level to complicated advanced grammar and vocabulary.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

証明　　証拠　証券　証言　立証　免許書　証明書

Proving is important part of life. Proof is important too in justice. Have to have proof to throw someone to jail unless you live in bad country. You even need to prove you are you when police asks and you get all sorts of certificates that prove you have accomplished something or you have given some right which you must prove. In Japanese proving revolves around the kanji 証. Basically all commonly used proofs and proving has this kanji. Lately on sumoforum there has been some issues about proof too in yaocho threads and earlier also in steroid threads. In sumo you sometimes hear rikishi say that their success is a proof that hard work takes you far or that anyone can do this if I could!

So what is proof in Japanese?

shouko, shoumei

One doesn't really need more words. Both are used a lot. Risshou is another one but less used.

shoumei suru = to prove 証明する

shoumei = proof　証明

shouko = proof　証拠

The kanji 証 has only Chinese reading and only one "shou". The kanji is involved in many other useful words that describe proving or proof or certificate of some kind.

Useful words:

mibunshoumeisho　身分証明書 personal identification thingie

shougen　証言 testimony (as in court)

shouken　証券 bonds, stocks and stuff like that

hanshou　反証 counter evidence! What I often present to Kintamayama in times of crisis

jisshou　実証 actual evidence! Kintamayama demands this often

shoumeisho　証明書 (certificate) and menkyosho 免許書 (licence)　give you good grounds for explaining any kind of certificate or license you might have.

Then some examples:

Moshi rikishi ga yaocho koto wo shouko nashi semeraretara, Kotoseiya no kuroi herikoputaa ga kitto arawareru. Shoumei dekinakucha!

もし力士が八百長ことを証拠なし責められたら、KOTOSEIYAの黒いヘリコプターがきっと表れる。証明できなくちゃ！

When Wakanoyama was promoted to komusubi he said something like "Watashi mo komusubi ni nareta to iu ha daredemo ga isshoukenmei ganbatte komusubi ni nareru shouko desu"　私も小結になれたと言うは誰でもが一生懸命頑張って小結になれる証拠です

Mitoizumi might say when some creepy looking gaijin is found lurking behind his old akeni in the heya 5am in the morning "Halt Intruder! MIBUNSHOUMEISHO WO MISETE!!!!!"　身分証明書を見せて！！！！！

When Nishinoshima was all big eyes and mouth slightly open due to konwaku going to get himself registered as an alien lifeform in the land of Japan, he probably got tourokushoumeisho which he can show when needed. Surveillance camera footage indicates there was following conversation on his big day when he got his tourokushoumeisho:

Koumuin: Irasshaimase! Chikan ni naranai you ni jibun no kosei wo nobashite itadakimasu. Koko ha tourokushoumeisho de gozaimasu. Douzo yoroshiku onegaishimasu

Nishinoshima: Arigatou!

Nishinoshima to helpful person who came to assist with the initial language problem "What did he say??? Is chikan something good?"

いらっしゃいませ！痴漢にならないように自分の個性を伸ばしていただきます。ここは登録証明書でございます。どうぞ宜しくお願いします。

ありがとう！

If same happened now Nishinoshima would naturally say "Gottsuan!!!!" and perform the god thanking gestures before taking the tourokushoumeisho.

[Kotoseiya Yuichi 3]

KOTOSEIYA

Make that 琴星夜!

Seriously, not a bad idea at all although requires quite a lot beforehand knowledge to get something out of these. If you don't mind, I'll go dust my Learn Japanese DVD boxes. They do make a fine conversation piece in the bookshelf! (Showing respect...)

[Jonosuke 28]

The kanji 証 has only Chinese reading and only one "shou".

It also can be read "Akashi", meaning clarify or prove authenticity.

I will add "evidence" to "shouko = proof　証拠" as well.

You came up with an excellent collection of 証.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

Throwing is a big part of non-punching martial arts. In sumo throwing techniques are vital too to bring versatility and excitement onto dohyo. Most members probably know the Japanese word for throw as it is attached in the names of the throwing techniques. The noun is "nage" 投げ　and verb "nageru"　投げる. One can nageru people and items so it is very convenient word to know in Japanese. When you throw away something the "away" is often mediated with replacing the word "nageru" with "suteru" 捨てる　or I guess also nagedasu 投げ出す　can be used in that sense and even nagesuteru 投げ捨てる　which combines throwing and discarding something. In relationships one doesn't nagesuteru but just suteru. Chiyotaikai ga gaarufurendo ni suterareta node, kanashiku natta = Chiyotaikai was dumped by girlfriend and that made him sad.　千代大海がガールフレンドに捨てられたので悲しくなった。

Anyways, just remember "nageru" and "suteru". If you want to throw something upwards you can say nageageru and if you want to emphasize the target as in "throw at" you can say nagetsukeru 投げ付ける　(throw+attach etc., if you throw a ball to your enemy's nose you can imagine your actions are throwing and attaching the ball to the ugly nose of your enemy).

In sumo nage is part of the following throwing techniques:

Uwatenage　上手投げ

Uwatedashinage　上手出し投げ

In these the uwa 上 is over/above and te 手　is hand, dashi is the root of dasu 出すverb. Hence overarm throw and overarm throw with the "sending" component if such a stiff expression is allowed to describe the moment of the pull.

Shitatenage　下手投げ

Shitatedashinage　下手出し投げ

Sama logic but instead of "uwa" there is "shita" meaning "under/below".

Sukuinage　掬い投げ

The "suku" in sukuinage is rare kanji that means "scoop, dip". In sukuinage you throw your opponent by this scooping movements with your arm.

Kotenage 小手投げ　- ko =　小 small so small arm throw if translated directly.

Kubinage 首投げ　- kubi 首means neck so neck throw

Koshinage - 腰投げ　koshi 腰is hip so hip throw

Kakenage - 掛け投げ　kake 掛け　has spectrum of meanings.

The rest of the rare techniques which all have nage are:

Nichonage　二丁投げ

Tokkurinage　徳利投げ

Tsukaminage　つかみ投げ

Yaguranage　櫓投げ

The kanji 投 has "nage(ru)", "nage" as Japanese reading and "tou" as Chinese reading. The meaning of the kanji is obviously "throw" but it also has a meaning of "send in". The latter comes apparent in most useful compound words like:

touhyou　投票 voting (to vote = touhyou suru)

toukou　投稿 contribution to article or so (toukou suru=to contribute)

toushi　投資 investment (toushi suru=to invest)

All aforementioned words are suru-verbs too and isn't it nice to be able to say things like:

Mou nagai aida sumoufooramu ni takusan toukou shiteorimasu.

もう長い間相撲フォーラムに沢山投稿しております

I have been contributing on sumoforum for a long time already and am very humble while saying that too.

Maa....ashita touhyou shi ni ikanakereba naranai. Senkyo ga okonawareru kara neeeeeeeeeee!

まあ。。。明日投票しに行かなければならない。選挙が行われるからねええええええええええ！

Emm..tomorrow I have to go to vote cause it is election!

Saifu ga haretekita node chotto kikitain desu. Nanika toushi osusume ga arimasuka? Okanemochi nara, Nara ni sumeru yo!

財布が腫れて来たのでちょっと聞きたいんです。何か投資お勧めがありますか。お金持ちなら奈良に住めるよ！

Wallet became swollen so I want to ask a bit. Any investment recommendations? If rich, then able to live in Nara!

Those are perhaps the three most useful compound words with this kanji in my subjective opinion. As a Finn I don't care about baseball where the Chinese reading of the kanji is often seen in throw-associated compound words.

And the classic Kokugikan announcement when Shoryu loses and zabuton fly:

ABUNAI DESU KARA ZABUTON WO NAGENAIDE KUDASAI! It is dangerous so don't throw the seat cushions!

危ないですから座布団を投げないでください！

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

Lets us proceed and discuss kaku a little bit. Not Kakuryu or silly things like that but kaku as in kakunin. 確

It is very very useful kanji as it has cool meaning of "certainty". In sumo kaku is involved in many news clips about Hakuho now because his yokozuna promotion has become certain and hence "横綱に昇進が確実になりました" is heard a lot. "Yokozuna ni shoushin ga kakujitsu ni narimashita" or "The promotion to yokozuna became certain". Another sumo related context one often hears kaku-word is during mono-ii explanations. I have heard it few times especially in lower divisions that the explanation is just "Mono-ii ga gyouji gumbai wo kakunin no tame tsukimashita. Gyouji gunbai douri"..or something like that meaning "The mono-ii was called in order to confirm gyouji's call. Gyouji's call was correct". Third nice word with kaku is kakuritsu or probability. One can think of billions of good usages in relation to sumo with this word.

So to cut the crap here are three good words for you with kaku:

kakunin　確認　confirmation

kakuritsu　確率 probability

kakujitsu　確実 certainty or kakujitsuna as adjective

Be well べベル

[Amanogawa 77]

Just the other day I used a word 辺鄙な　( henpi na - rural ) when teaching a class of 40, of 16-17 years old. Then one boy very nonchalantly said, "Could you not use such a weird word please...!" I was shocked. Henpi na is kakujitsu ni listed in any simple Japanese dictionary. And those are the students considered as pretty high-level. But then I was even more shocked when I learned 1/4 of the class said they hadn't heard the word either.

Ganbare Kaikitsune! You may be the very chosen one to guard Japanese of tradition and beauty.

[Kotonosato 1]

Just the other day I used a word 辺鄙な　( henpi na - rural ) when teaching a class of 40, of 16-17 years old. Then one boy very nonchalantly said, "Could you not use such a weird word please...!"

It's really not that common. Most high school students would probably use "inaka".

It also sounds a bit like "benpi" or "manpi-". That would also be enough to freak out teenagers

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Just the other day I used a word 辺鄙な　( henpi na - rural ) when teaching a class of 40, of 16-17 years old. Then one boy very nonchalantly said, "Could you not use such a weird word please...!"

It's really not that common. Most high school students would probably use "inaka".

It also sounds a bit like "benpi" or "manpi-". That would also be enough to freak out teenagers

I just checked the first Japanese dictionary I ever used - The AOTS Nihongo Dictionary For Practical Use (3A Corporation), a basic dictionary of 9072 words to be used with the textbook series Shin Nihongo no Kiso - and the word henpi-na is not listed. A new word for me... (Blushing...)

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Just the other day I used a word 辺鄙な　( henpi na - rural ) when teaching a class of 40, of 16-17 years old. Then one boy very nonchalantly said, "Could you not use such a weird word please...!" I was shocked. Henpi na is kakujitsu ni listed in any simple Japanese dictionary. And those are the students considered as pretty high-level. But then I was even more shocked when I learned 1/4 of the class said they hadn't heard the word either.

I didn't find it in my electronic dictionary either. After checking an online dictionary, it seems to carry the nuance of "remote area; hard to reach area". I imagine inaka would be used for rural as Kotonosato suggested. I did come across this entry online:

僻境 【へききょう】 (n) deep rural areas

Is it commonly used?

Edited June 13, 2007 by Otokonoyama

[Doitsuyama 1,161]

I did come across this entry online:

僻境 【へききょう】 (n) deep rural areas

Is it commonly used?

I always like to google for that. 僻境 gives 3,000 something hits which is quite few. In comparison, 辺鄙 has over 500,000 hits.

[Kotonosato 1]

僻境 【へききょう】 (n) deep rural areas

Is it commonly used?

No. And when it is used, it usually refers to the outdoors in general, rather than do-inaka specifically.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Kotonosato

[Kotonosato 1]

I did come across this entry online:

僻境 【へききょう】 (n) deep rural areas

Is it commonly used?

I always like to google for that. 僻境 gives 3,000 something hits which is quite few. In comparison, 辺鄙 has over 500,000 hits.

Since we're googling...

Inaka gets more than 21 million hits, while henpi gets only a little over 700,000.

[Jonosuke 28]

I guess it means that more people like to go and talk about Inaka than Henpi.

I don't mind living in Inaka (not do-inaka of Kotonosato san) but not crazy about living in Henpi.

[Itachi 367]

I guess it means that more people like to go and talk about Inaka than Henpi.

I don't mind living in Inaka (not do-inaka of Kotonosato san) but not crazy about living in Henpi.

I know inaka - I've even visited Inakadate - but what is do-inaka? Is that a special term for really really isolated rural places?

[Kotonosato 1]

I guess it means that more people like to go and talk about Inaka than Henpi.

I don't mind living in Inaka (not do-inaka of Kotonosato san) but not crazy about living in Henpi.

I know inaka - I've even visited Inakadate - but what is do-inaka? Is that a special term for really really isolated rural places?

Yeah, exactly. Do is a prefix meaning extreme. It's used with inaka to refer to the REAL boondocks.

Afficionados of Japanese pornography will also be familiar with do-sukebee. :-) (In fact, you may have been called that a few times.) (Laughing...)

[Jonosuke 28]

Afficionados of Japanese pornography will also be familiar with do-sukebee. :-) (In fact, you may

have been called that a few times.) (Laughing...)

Kinta-kun must have been talking about me again...

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

Inakappe is a good word. I bet there are many forum members here who are inakappe by heart and soul. Of course I only use inakappe in a benign way and not in derogative sense. Geppu is another nice word but I like Kotobeppu the most because beppu in "kotobeppu" sounds like "kotopeppu" and "peppu" is Finnish and means the butt in child language and if you ever saw Kotobeppu by chance on Eurosport without any knowledge of sumo, you immediately thought about a small big baby with diaper as Kotobeppu looked like a big peppu baby.

[Kintamayama 42,734]

Afficionados of Japanese pornography will also be familiar with do-sukebee. :-) (In fact, you may

have been called that a few times.) (Laughing...)

Kinta-kun must have been talking about me again...

Actually, I'm more of an etchi kind of guy..

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

ざんきに耐えない

Zanki ni taenai. Good phrase. If forum member puts herself/himself in deep shame on forum and leaves due to that, it may be zanki ni taenai moment. Zanki ni taenai was also used a lot in comments concerning the suicides of agriculturu minister and some other big time fellow a while ago due to corruption revelations and so.

Zanki is usually spelled with hiragana because the kanji is rare and for kanji geeks.

[Amanogawa 77]

Sorry for misleading. (I am not worthy...) I should have put "any basic kokugo-jiten", instead of "Japanese dictionary". My 6 year-old niece has a nice decent jisho which of course lists the word henpi. And this kokugo-jiten is designed for children who first use one.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%AD%A6%E7%BF%92...7275&sr=1-9

Well.. what upsets me actually is that we tend to regard the term, for example "inaka" here, as the most legit just because it is more commonly used or hits more on Google. Call me old school, but I really don't think the mundane ( and kind of mocking ) word "inaka" should displace colorful "henpi", though I understand "inaka" has a good history, of 1,000 years or more back.

Maybe I just like the 鄙 kanji. (Sigh...)

My dilapidated taste favors the verb 鄙びる（hinabiru) too (Sign of approval...) (Another year older...) (Another year older...) , and yet this tasteful word may probably give in to something like 田舎びる ( inaka-biru ) soon. Really, zanki ni taemasen neee....

[Itachi 367]

ざんきに耐えない

Zanki ni taenai. Good phrase. If forum member puts herself/himself in deep shame on forum and leaves due to that, it may be zanki ni taenai moment. Zanki ni taenai was also used a lot in comments concerning the suicides of agriculturu minister and some other big time fellow a while ago due to corruption revelations and so.

Zanki is usually spelled with hiragana because the kanji is rare and for kanji geeks.

Thanks for that one Kaikitsune-sensei. I will make a note to look up that rare kanji because I am one of those who likes that sort of thing.

I prefer the term kanji aficionado or enthusiast to geek but I'll respond to geek in this context. How about nerd? Zealot?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Sorry for misleading. (I am not worthy...) I should have put "any basic kokugo-jiten", instead of "Japanese dictionary". My 6 year-old niece has a nice decent jisho which of course lists the word henpi. And this kokugo-jiten is designed for children who first use one.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E5%AD%A6%E7%BF%92...7275&sr=1-9

Well.. what upsets me actually is that we tend to regard the term, for example "inaka" here, as the most legit just because it is more commonly used or hits more on Google. Call me old school, but I really don't think the mundane ( and kind of mocking ) word "inaka" should displace colorful "henpi", though I understand "inaka" has a good history, of 1,000 years or more back.

Maybe I just like the 鄙 kanji. (Whatever above, it is funny...)

My dilapidated taste favors the verb 鄙びる（hinabiru) too (Laughing...) (Another year older...) (Another year older...) , and yet this tasteful word may probably give in to something like 田舎びる ( inaka-biru ) soon. Really, zanki ni taemasen neee....

No need to apologise! I'm sure most 6-year-old local kids could run circles around me linguistically. (Blushing...) I was commenting on the difference in nuance as used in English. I am less clear on the way those words are used practically in Japanese. In English there is a clear difference between rural/the countryside (inaka) and remote/hard to reach (henpi). I don't know how clear the distinction is in Japanese. Either way, all the comments from everyone have been interesting and educational for me. (Showing respect...)

にへ～で～びる

[Kaikitsune Makoto 203]

Very cool website. Some lady kept this until 2006. Nice clips and downloadable even. Geisha, meishi, even Isenoumi-oyakata's interview...check it out dudes and dudettes.

http://www.voiceblog.jp/nippon/

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Back on the henpi(na) topic, I heard the word (for the first time in memory) barely two weeks after Amanogawa brought the topic up, while eating lunch with my public junior high school colleagues. It is out there, and still being used. I then tried it with several friends, none of which so much as batted an eyelid or asked for clarification. Perfectly serviceable word (Scratching chin...) Granted, we're all in our 30s; I don't know if the average student at my school or in my area would know/use it...