Size does matter / katakana in shikona

[Kintamayama 42,366]

BTW, Sadogatake-beya's website mentions four shin-deshi at the moment, including the five-kanji'ed Kotokirigakubo (琴桐ケ久保)...be interesting to see if he keeps that shikona for any length of time.

(Okay, four kanji with a katakana in the middle...)

AFAIK, that isn't a katakana. I don't think there is/was a single katakana in any shikona ever.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I had to do a double-take too! The particle "no" is sometimes written with kanji (乃), sometimes with hiragana (の), and sometimes with katakana (ノ). But, I think I understand what Moti was trying to say...that AFAIK besides this one exception kana are not used in shikona.

[Kintamayama 42,366]

I don't think there is/was a single katakana in any shikona ever.

Medium rare please.

I think the "no" is a special case, but you got me there...

Edited March 5, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Doitsuyama 1,157]

I don't think there is/was a single katakana in any shikona ever.

Medium rare please.

I think the "no" is a special case, but you got me there...

The use of the katakana ケ　or the small version ヶ for the syllable "ga" has been rather normal in shikona - and also in normal Japanese names. It's more rarely seen nowadays, but several toshiyori names (which are also "shikona" for the oyakata) still have it: Fujigane, Isegahama, Kimigahama, Kumagatani, Matsugane, Mihogaseki and Sadogatake.

Some use in shikona: Jumonji has formerly been Kaigatake, Yakigaya and Hoshigane are the two current rikishi with the katakana ヶ in their shikona.

Edit: While ノ　and ケ are special cases, I remembered another instance, not on the banzuke, but still: Takamiyama (current Azumazeki oyakata) competed in mae-zumo as ジェシー.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Doitsuyama

[Kintamayama 42,366]

The use of the katakana ケ　or the small version ヶ for the syllable "ga" has been rather normal in shikona - and also in normal Japanese names. It's more rarely seen nowadays, but several toshiyori names (which are also "shikona" for the oyakata) still have it: Fujigane, Isegahama, Kimigahama, Kumagatani, Matsugane, Mihogaseki and Sadogatake.

That is the katakana for "ke", and not "ga". Do the "small letters" as you mentioned fall into the kana category? ヶ, 々 (the "repeat" symbol-where does it fall? kanji?)

[aderechelsea 107]

That is the katakana for "ke", and not "ga"

but it is "ga" in the shikonas ....

apart from the many examples Doitsuyama provided, Tsurugamine i think has that katakana in his shikona.

(the pics i posted lately helped me a lot in shikona reading)

[Kintamayama 42,366]

That is the katakana for "ke", and not "ga"

but it is "ga" in the shikonas ....

apart from the many examples Doitsuyama provided, Tsurugamine i think has that katakana in his shikona.

(the pics i posted lately helped me a lot in shikona reading)

I agree it's a "ga". My question is if it is katakana per se, or falls under a special category, together with the other letter I mentioned and perhaps others.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 42,366]

That is the katakana for "ke", and not "ga"

but it is "ga" in the shikonas ....

It's not. Kintamayama is right. The katakana "ke" and the small "ga" are not the same symbol though they may look alike. The small "ga" is not counted as katakana, and the larger "ke" is not used in shikona.

That is precisely what I thought.

[Asashosakari 17,346]

Kintamayama is right. The katakana "ke" and the small "ga" are not the same symbol though they may look alike. The small "ga" is not counted as katakana, and the larger "ke" is not used in shikona.

Is it possible that even Japanese are confused by that? While Sadogatake-beya is 佐渡ヶ嶽部屋 on the Kyokai site, it's 佐渡ケ嶽部屋 on the heya's own home page...

Edited March 5, 2007 by Asashosakari

[aderechelsea 107]

That is the katakana for "ke", and not "ga"

but it is "ga" in the shikonas ....

It's not. Kintamayama is right. The katakana "ke" and the small "ga" are not the same symbol though they may look alike. The small "ga" is not counted as katakana, and the larger "ke" is not used in shikona.

it doesn't look small to me ....

[Doitsuyama 1,157]

I definitely can confirm that it isn't only the small variant in use. The famous hoshitori-hyo site from Gans often uses the big ケ. My impression is that it seemingly isn't that important which one is used.

[Kintamayama 42,366]

My theory of the use of a "big" ga is simple: Lack of the correct font. Since it's a different size altogether and doesn't fall into the three "obvious" categories, perhaps not all printing presses/computer fonts have them, so they use the kana "ke", since it's almost the same.

Maybe our Japanese members can elaborate on this question?

Personally I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as a "big" ga, and its use confuses me to the utmost.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Asashosakari 17,346]

Large or small? You make the call...

Edited March 5, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama 42,366]

Large or small? You make the call...

Large for sure, but I think it's because this particular set of fonts doesn't have the small "ga". Or maybe it's OK to use a big "ga" in shikonae, but not in everyday Japanese?

I have no idea, but it just doesn't "feel" right. also, FWIW, when you mouse over that big "ga" with rikai, it gives the kana "ke". When you mouse over the small "ga", it gives a "no such kanji" reading..

Edited March 5, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama 42,366]

And let's go down the large or small route, off the Kyokai site:

三保ヶ関部屋

松ヶ根部屋

佐渡ヶ嶽部屋

Large or small?

[Doitsuyama 1,157]

My theory of the use of a "big" ga is simple: Lack of the correct font. Since it's a different size altogether and doesn't fall into the three "obvious" categories, perhaps not all printing presses/computer fonts have them, so they use the kana "ke", since it's almost the same.

I'm willing to bet a steak that this is NOT the reason. Any font which has the 3000 or more kanji does have the small kana as well. After all, small kana in general are a totally normal part of the script.

[Kintamayama 42,366]

I'm willing to bet a steak that this is NOT the reason. Any font which has the 3000 or more kanji does have the small kana as well. After all, small kana in general are a totally normal part of the script.

What other small kanas exist? When you say kana, do you include both hiragana and katagana? If so, I know some small hiraganas for sure. So this "ga" must be a small katagana? If so, why is its pronunciation different than the original? Or does it not matter? And, I ask again-are we sure this is a kana at all, or is it a fourth party, like the kurikaeshi and chouon?

And yes, small kanas are a normal part of a script, but can you give me a non-shikona/name Japanese word that utilizes the "ga" we are discussing here?

Moderators- maybe we should open a new thread for this gaga discussion..

Edited March 5, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke 28]

I try to split this topic but I couldn't so I guess more superior power must intervene.

Anyway as far as this Ga or Ke business, even though it is written like a small katakana "ke", it isn't a katakana at all but it is one of the fragments of kanji "箇" that is already mentioned looking like Take "竹".

It is often used to count things like "一ヶ" for one unit.

Often it is used as a part of place like in Tokyo's KasumiGAseki "霞ヶ関

[Asashosakari 17,346]

In defense of my original "4 kanji and one katakana" assertion (Holiday feeling...) - that's how it appears on sadogatake.com. Based on the convention apparently followed by the Kyokai on their website, I'm quite sure that the guy's "proper" shikona will include a 'ga', not a katakana 'ke', but I still think it's interesting that the Sadogatake webmaster* seems to use the 'ke' quite consistently where it properly ought to be a 'ga'. And I don't think it's a font problem.

* (And plenty of other people...Google hits for the name Kirigakubo with proper 'ga' 桐ヶ久保: 26; Google hits with improper 'ke' 桐ケ久保: 409)

Edit: And goshdarnit, my actual point was supposed to be that the guy is going to have a rare five-character shikona, at least for maezumo. (Singing drunk...)

Edited March 5, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Doitsuyama 1,157]

I try to split this topic but I couldn't so I guess more superior power must intervene.

Anyway as far as this Ga or Ke business, even though it is written like a small katakana "ke", it isn't a katakana at all but it is one of the fragments of kanji "箇" that is already mentioned looking like Take "竹".

You should at least mention that it IS a katakana in the way of typing it on a keyboard... it's typed just as a little katakana ケ. It may in reality not be a katakana, but by character code (doesn't matter if JIS or Unicode) / input method / whatever else it factually is a katakana character.

[Doitsuyama 1,157]

I'm willing to bet a steak that this is NOT the reason. Any font which has the 3000 or more kanji does have the small kana as well. After all, small kana in general are a totally normal part of the script.

What other small kanas exist? When you say kana, do you include both hiragana and katagana? If so, I know some small hiraganas for sure. So this "ga" must be a small katagana? If so, why is its pronunciation different than the original?

This "ga" is in fact a small katakana, just check with JWPce. In reality it's more complicated as Jonosuke can explain much better. There exist several more small katakana which are used mostly for spelling foreign words (as is katakana in general of course).

For example a small "i" is used to spell "di", as in "ティ" (= "tea") and many more example. Try your last name... Also used for "wi" as in "ウィーク" (="week"). Then there is the small "e" for use in "we" as for example in "ウェーター" (= "waiter"). The small "tsu" gets a lot of usage for the same purpose as the small hiragana "tsu", as do the small "ya", "yo" and "yu".

Bottom line, small kana are absolutely essential and I can't imagine there is a font with 3000 kanji, but without the small kana.

[Kintamayama 42,366]

Bottom line, small kana are absolutely essential and I can't imagine there is a font with 3000 kanji, but without the small kana.

Yes, of course they are essential. On all "small kana" defining sites I checked, those you mentioned are there. I know them all of course.

All except our "ga" which is nowhere to be seen on any "small kana" list I found..

[Asojima 2,844]

Kinta and Nishi are correct. In this case ケ is not a katakana. It is a shortened version of 箇, actually a minor corruption of the first three strokes of 箇. 個 and 箇 are two variations of the same word in both Chinese and Japanese. It is a generic counter used as a suffix in most numeric expressions, and is, therefore. one of the most commonly used characters in both languages. Since it is a moderately complex character, it took a lot of time to write it in documents dealing with large amounts of numeric data. The simple solution was to create a commonly accepted shorthand version of it. The Japanese picked ケ, and the Chinese picked a slightly different variation of the first three strokes. It is considered a kanji symbol, but is technically not an official kanji character. It just happens to look exactly like the ケ used in katakana to denote the sound "ka", and either the large of small kana charcter for "ka" which exist in most font sets is commonly used for this shorthand symbol. There are hundreds of shortened versions of complex kanji and Chinese characters. The mainland Chinese have, in fact, carried out an extensive literacy campaign to replace most complex characters with gross simplifications.

While we are on the subject, I believe the character 栃 in Tochiazuma is a shortened version of some other kanji or Chinese character. Is there someone more literate than I who can supply the original character for 栃? How did we come up with the meaning of "horse chestnut" for this character?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I think that at least in the case of computers and the Internet, the larger "ga" symbol is made with the katakana "ke" due to either user laziness or the user not being fully aware of how the various symbols are entered with the keyboard. It can vary from OS to OS, platform to platform. In any case, I don't believe it matters much to native Japanese (as Joe mentioned). From context, they would know the correct reading and use it automatically.

[Asojima 2,844]

Thanks much for the chart, Nishi. It is a keeper. This is the first thing I have seen that shows the derivation of the kana characters. (I am not worthy...) (Heart...)