Tattoos and Bath

[kaiguma 0]

Does anyone know if there are still many traditional furoya or onsen that won't allow tatooed patrons? During my first trip to Japan, I only used furoya that were part of hotel or inn-complexes. One of these was the inn at Ninna-ji in Kyoto, but it was not very regulated. Just curious in case I need to burn off my tatoos next time before I try to enter!! B-)

Edited February 25, 2007 by kaiguma

[Shibouyama 1]

Does anyone know if there are still many traditional furoya or onsen that won't allow tatooed patrons? During my first trip to Japan, I only used furoya that were part of hotel or inn-complexes. One of these was the inn at Ninna-ji in Kyoto, but it was not very regulated. Just curious in case I need to burn off my tatoos next time before I try to enter!! (Sign of approval...)

In my area, Southwest Japan, most onsen are still tattoo kotowari (tattoo banned). I was kicked out of an onsen while I was in the middle of washing myself. It was an extremely unagreeable feeling and since then I`ve been rejected a few times from entering into different ones. My town has an onsen resort area about 10 minutes walk from my apt., many onsen, none of which I can enter. I found a decent one about a 20 minutes drive away in the next town that I can go in. I`m assuming they changed the rules because many Russian sailors come in and they want the business (although, I`ve never seen one there).

This rule is my biggest pet peeve about Japan. There are many young people who get tattoos these days, and that aspect of "onsen culture" is something they can`t experience. It`s part of their culture, but they can`t experience it. It`s just old-fashioned thinking and an unwillingness to change. Judge people on their behavior, not what they look like, is what I say. Unfortunately, tattoo discrimination (or discrimination of any kind) is not illegal in Japan, so these shops can get away with it.

Also, it may depend on how many tattoos you have. I`ve heard from several people, who had only one tattoo, that they experienced no problems in the local onsen. I, myself, have six tattoos, so maybe it`s harder to pretnd you don`t see it.

Edit: I LOVE onsen! and can`t go in most of them. MUKATSUKU!

Edited February 27, 2007 by Shibouyama

[Jonosuke 28]

I LOVE onsen! and can`t go in most of them. MUKATSUKU!

Spock: The needs of the many... outweigh -

Kirk: The needs of the few.

Spock: Or the one.

(From: "The Wrath of Khan")

[ilovesumo 12]

Thank god I don't have any...but am to shy for any public bath, so.... (Sign of disapproval...)

[Shibouyama 1]

I LOVE onsen! and can`t go in most of them. MUKATSUKU!

Spock: The needs of the many... outweigh -

Kirk: The needs of the few.

Spock: Or the one.

(From: "The Wrath of Khan")

That basically means the majority have all the rights and the minority/minorities have no rights (Democracy). It`s not good enough, and I wouldn`t be your friend if you truly held such views. Actually, I really hate this view point. This is the way WE do it, so just shut up, which ignores the fact that even within the WE there are non-wes, people that disagree with the majority view.

When I mention this rule to Japanese people they always try to justify/explain it instead of just saying it is wrong. Why can`t people fess up to something that is wrong in their country/culture? I don`t have any problem doing it concerning the US?

Edit: That response (not the wording, but the justification) is sooooooooo typical of this country. Like I said, It`s my big pet peeve (read: I really f---ing hate that response/way of just completely disregarding my feelings/needs/rights to go into a f---ing public bath.)

Edited February 27, 2007 by Shibouyama

[Jonosuke 28]

Sorry guys I split this one out to specifically discuss tattos in Japanese Society as that has little to do with the yokozuna tattoss originally raised by Nishi san.

[Jonosuke 28]

That response (not the wording, but the justification) is sooooooooo typical of this country. Like I said, It`s my big pet peeve (read: I really f---ing hate that response/way of just completely disregarding my feelings/needs/rights to go into a f---ing public bath.)

Well basically you like it or not, Japan is a communal nation and a public bath is a communal place. To join in a communal activity, one has to agree to follow certain guidelines.

Traditionally elaborate tattoos in Japanese society meant one's affiliation with a private ogranized crime group or yakuza.

From their past experiences or perceptions real or imaginary, most ordinary Japanese are fearful of their presence. If you see one walking towards you, you will deliberately make a space for him. You will avoid places where they frequent. If a certain establishment is known to be a hangout for their "kind", most people will stop going there. It's not a discrimination just human nature. Just like I don't go to a known motorcycle gang hangout. You just don't want to invite troubles on yourself or your family members.

My cousin was walking up stairs at a train station late one night. There were two guys coming down, it was a narrow stairwell and his shoulder touched one of them. The guy asked him to apologize. My cousin ignored him. Unfortunate for my cousin, the guys were members of a certain group. One guy apparently quickly called some others and pretty soon my cousin got beaten up by six guys and was hospitalized for a month for broken cheeks and arms.

People hear this type of stories all the time. They have a right to be scared, irrational or not. It's just the way it is. Perceptions even imaginary ones are hard to change.

If people perceive a bath or onsen to be a place where gang members frequent, they will avoid it and the proprietor has a right to ask certain people to excuse themselves. You may surprise to find out that most if not all members do comply because they do understand the fear. Perhaps they may want to other people to fear them.

You rarely see yakuza members in public baths, pools or onsens because they too are members of a communal society, however abnormal it may be, compared to the main fabrics of Japanese society.

[ilovesumo 12]

And an other lesson to understand Japan a little better... thank you very much, Jonosuke-先生.

[kaiguma 0]

You rarely see yakuza members in public baths, pools or onsens because they too are members of a communal society, however abnormal it may be, compared to the main fabrics of Japanese society.

Everything you've said about the communal society and the yakuza is absolutely true, and this is the explanation you always hear for onsen horimono kotowari. But there are two problems with this argument. First your quote above is very true. Yakuza go to yakuza onsen, not the regular community onsen, so there is no longer much need to screen patrons based on the presence of tattoos. Traditions and customs do not exist in stasis and they do change over time and it's about time that this one changes. No one is going to see our Mr. Vath Shibuyama strip down in the changing room and say, Mitte - Yakuza desu! I would guess the yakuza are more discriminatory against gaijin than anyone else in Japan, so it's safe to say he's not one!

Secondly, the custom of banning tattooed patrons and assuming that this is only against yakuza leaves out the other large part of Japanese culture that was traditionally tattooed: the working class. I've heard it hypothesized that tattoo ban is an old form of classist discrimination and it was always easy to write it off as a safeguard against yakuza. This doesn't mean the yakuza explanation is false, but more like 2 birds with one stone. And now with some onsen feeling a desire to weed out "rough gaijin" it's 3 birds with one stone. Throw in "indiscrete Japanese youth" and that's a lot of birds with one stone.

The latter even includes my wife who got a small tattoo of a butterfly on her hip while studying for her second degree in Rome. She certainly doesn't appear as some 'trashy punk girl.' In fact, now she's a 30-yo respectable mother with a butterfly on her hip. The good news is, she's only been asked to leave an onsen once, and I was never asked to leave in inns and hotels, so it seems like the market is making the decision for these bathhouse owners. The bad news is, they can bring up this old rationale anytime they want to discriminate based on appearance. Hmmm, we don't like the way that guy looks; he looks funny. I wonder if he's scaring the regulars. Oh look, he's got a tattoo, kick him out!

I can see both sides of the argument and there doesn't seem to be any easy solution. I think over time it will work itself out as more and more young people get tattoos, just like it has begun to happen with hiring practices in corporate America.

[Shibouyama 1]

That response (not the wording, but the justification) is sooooooooo typical of this country. Like I said, It`s my big pet peeve (read: I really f---ing hate that response/way of just completely disregarding my feelings/needs/rights to go into a f---ing public bath.)

Well basically you like it or not, Japan is a communal nation,

blah, blah, blah...rationalizing discrimination...blah, blah...lame anecdotal evidence...blah... people have a right to discriminate if it`s based on fear...blah, blah, blah, etc...

the main fabrics of Japanese society.

Please refer to my previous post.

[ilovesumo 12]

Also some very good points Kaiguma.

What I learned in Japan- never ask "why" (especially as an arubaito). I think most of them just carry over the old thoughts-cause they are useful- As you say. "It wasn't me making these rules but they do exist"...

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

As for the yaks, I found the lower-level punks to be more of a problem than the older, more established members. Anytime I came across a middle-aged guy who was obvioulsy a "made man in Japan", he was invariably polite. And in attendance of the older boss, the young 'uns are polite too. It's only when they get out on their own that they make trouble. YMMV...

[Jonosuke 28]

I just want to add one more thought. I am not saying there is no discrimination against Gaikokujin at certain onsen and public baths as I happen to know some owners prefer not to have them come in. Main reasons appear to be similar to some heyas not wanting to have Gaikokujin at their morning training sessions as they feel non-Japanese are not familiar with "keiko" etiquette and they cannot caution them once transgressions occur due to language difficulty.

As most long time residents in Japan know there is a set way of taking a bath at a public bath and onsen - i.e. one basically wash themselves or at least "rinse" their body before entering the bath. Some operators have experienced some non-Japanese not to observe the etiquette so they prefer not to have them for the benefit of other guests.

When talking about your feeling, you also should recognize the feelings of others. There are Japanese who genuinely find and feel tattoos to be distasteful. Especially in older generations in rural communities, this "feeling" is predominant. Just as you want your feeling to be respected, they too will have their own feeling and they happen to be in majority, nothing to do with rights.

Until a short time ago, I found it difficult to go and sit at a Masu seat for long time at the Kokugikan as I hate tabacco fumes. I used to ask an attendant to take away an ashtray as the empty one even smelled. Now the tide may have shifted in the sumo world so non-smokers appear to be winning the battle as they made the building smoke-free. Unfortunately there are still many places in Japan this is not the case. But things do change even though only gradually.

A while back a man and woman were ejected from a commercial airplane. Other passengers complained of man's odor. A flight attendant asked him to leave the plane. They objected and they were physically taken out of the plane by police. So they missed the flight and had to buy an expensive one way ticket to get back home. They sued the airline for the extra expenses and inconvenience. The couple pleaded their rights were violated as they paid for the plane ticket they had a right to stay and be flown back. The judge ruled in favor of the airline. And this did not happen in Japan.

It has less to do with individual rights. It's well being of many.

[Shibouyama 1]

As most long time residents in Japan know there is a set way of taking a bath at a public bath and onsen - i.e. one basically wash themselves or at least "rinse" their body before entering the bath. Some operators have experienced some non-Japanese not to observe the etiquette so they prefer not to have them for the benefit of other guests.

Here`s my contribution to the useless anecdote category. Two months when I was in Kyushu on a hiking trip with my friend (50ish Japanese guy) every night at the onsen HE would enter the bath right away without washing first.

And when it comes to feelings, they may be hurt if a person is discriminated against, but they are not justification for discrimination.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Shibouyama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Here`s my contribution to the useless anecdote category. Two months when I was in Kyushu on a hiking trip with my friend (50ish Japanese guy) every night at the onsen HE would enter the bath right away without washing first.

I have to agree with Shibs here. When I came to Japan 10 years ago, I became addicted to sento and onsen very quickly. Simply wonderful. Things have changed in that time however. Before, almost everyone (locals) observed the standard Joe mentioned. They washed & rinsed thoroughly before entering the bath. Now, I find many, many Japanese people do not. They go right in, completely "dry" (but oily/dirty). This has really detracted from my enjoyment of a fine tradition. (Sign of disapproval...)

[Shibouyama 1]

Here`s my contribution to the useless anecdote category. Two months ago when I was in Kyushu on a hiking trip with my friend (50ish Japanese guy) every night at the onsen HE would enter the bath right away without washing first.

I have to agree with Shibs here. When I came to Japan 10 years ago, I became addicted to sento and onsen very quickly. Simply wonderful. Things have changed in that time however. Before, almost everyone (locals) observed the standard Joe mentioned. They washed & rinsed thoroughly before entering the bath. Now, I find many, many Japanese people do not. They go right in, completely "dry" (but oily/dirty). This has really detracted from my enjoyment of a fine tradition. B-)

Exactly, maybe all Japanese should be banned from Japanese Onsen. Oh wait, it`s easier just to pick on people that stick out, foriegners, people with tattoos, nails, etc...

There are other typical rule-breaking infractions attributed to gaijin that are actually, gasp!, often perpatrated by the natives, as well. Proper garbage disposal comes to mind. I have taken charge of the gomi spot at my mansion and, martyr-like, seperate the trash of all the young, single idiots living here who don`t bother to. As well as posting signs explaing the proper categories and days of pick-up, etc... at my own time and expense as the landlord is an old guy who doesn`t care and can`t be bothered to maintain the property properly.

What has this to do with anything? I`m saying that Japanese break the same rules typically thought of as gaijin problems. Therefore, going back to my original statement, people should be judged on their behavior, not their appearance. It DOES NOT serve the majority`s best interest to hold viewpoints that are based on prejudice instead of fact. It just makes them ignorant and close minded.

Edited February 28, 2007 by Shibouyama

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I do admit to having a problem with the wait & see attitude sometimes. Yes, things eventually change. Sometimes for the better. And, sometimes not. While complaining and making scenes will definitely not do much to rectify perceived problems, constructive criticism can go a long way towards finding solutions. I do believe that as a tool for change, consrtuctive criticism isn't used enough in Japan these days. The old 'gaman' attitude pervades every facet of life. While a good strategy in many situations, it would be better to decide whether to gaman or whether to offer some ideas for fixing problems on a case-by-case basis.

[troutbum 0]

Does anyone know if there are still many traditional furoya or onsen that won't allow tatooed patrons? During my first trip to Japan, I only used furoya that were part of hotel or inn-complexes. One of these was the inn at Ninna-ji in Kyoto, but it was not very regulated. Just curious in case I need to burn off my tatoos next time before I try to enter!! (In jonokuchi...)

In my area, Southwest Japan, most onsen are still tattoo kotowari (tattoo banned). I was kicked out of an onsen while I was in the middle of washing myself. It was an extremely unagreeable feeling and since then I`ve been rejected a few times from entering into different ones. My town has an onsen resort area about 10 minutes walk from my apt., many onsen, none of which I can enter. I found a decent one about a 20 minutes drive away in the next town that I can go in. I`m assuming they changed the rules because many Russian sailors come in and they want the business (although, I`ve never seen one there).

This rule is my biggest pet peeve about Japan. There are many young people who get tattoos these days, and that aspect of "onsen culture" is something they can`t experience. It`s part of their culture, but they can`t experience it. It`s just old-fashioned thinking and an unwillingness to change. Judge people on their behavior, not what they look like, is what I say. Unfortunately, tattoo discrimination (or discrimination of any kind) is not illegal in Japan, so these shops can get away with it.

Also, it may depend on how many tattoos you have. I`ve heard from several people, who had only one tattoo, that they experienced no problems in the local onsen. I, myself, have six tattoos, so maybe it`s harder to pretnd you don`t see it.

Edit: I LOVE onsen! and can`t go in most of them. MUKATSUKU!

Drive to Yubara, thats not so far from Tottori.

Just below the dam, there is an onsen in the river. It is free,

and on weekends there are a lot of tatooted Harley drivers there. No problem there with tatoo.

[sekihiryu 51]

the sento near my place must be the Yakuza one because there are some amazing tattoos on display almost everytime I go there, full back ones. I like the sento, its really old and rustic and its like stepping back in time everytime I go there.

[Shibouyama 1]

Drive to Yubara, thats not so far from Tottori.

Just below the dam, there is an onsen in the river. It is free,

and on weekends there are a lot of tatooted Harley drivers there. No problem there with tatoo.

I've been there 4 or 5 times. It's about 45 minutes drive and there are some tolls involved, so it's not super convenient, but yes it is a nice place.

There's also another public, free outdoor onsen in Misasa, Tottori, about 1 1/2 hours away, that I stop into on my way back from Tottori city when i have to go there on business, but it's not as nice as Yubara.

I go to a tattoo ok onsen in the next city over, about 25 minutes away.

[kaiguma 0]

the sento near my place must be the Yakuza one because there are some amazing tattoos on display almost everytime I go there, full back ones. I like the sento, its really old and rustic and its like stepping back in time everytime I go there.

If I were you I'd be watching my own back a lot more than the pretty art on the ones around you :-D

:-D couldn't resist