Gaijin, Gaikokujin, etc

[Gacktoh 0]

大相撲の中継中、「外人力士」とは言っていけないことになっています。

「外国人力士」と言わなくてはいけない決まりになっているそうです。

私が日本の友達と話すとき、「外人さん」とか「外国の方」とか「海外の方」とか、気持ちの面で丁寧な言い方をしています。

そこで質問です。

丁寧な表現でも、やはり嫌ですか？

もし嫌なら、どんな呼び方を希望しますか？

因みに私のブログでは、「海外の相撲ファンの方々」と書いているのですが、これも嫌な感じを受けますか？

[ilovesumo 12]

モンゴルの力士(方)とかヨロッパの力士(方) がいいと思います。外人はどこでも

から来ます。(?) 2派に分裂していると思います。でも韓国の力士と中国の力士は？ (Holiday feeling...)

Oh my Japanese sux still... (Blushing...)

海外の相撲ファン...hmmm 相撲ファンはどこでも

から来ます。全部おなじ。相撲が大好き外国人です。

Edited January 30, 2007 by ilovesumo

[Gacktoh 0]

モンゴルの力士(方)とかヨロッパの力士(方) がいいと思います。外人はどこでも

から来ます。(?) 2派に分裂していると思います。でも韓国の力士と中国の力士は？ (Holiday feeling...)

Oh my Japanese sux still... (Blushing...)

海外の相撲ファン...hmmm 相撲ファンはどこでも

から来ます。全部おなじ。相撲が大好き外国人です。

なるほど。

モンゴル出身力士とか、ヨーロッパ出身力士、とすれば良いですね。

韓国出身力士、中国出身力士、どれでもOKです。

力士以外はどうですか？

相撲ファンの事を書くとき、「外国の相撲ファン」と書いたりするのはどうですか？

[Petr 0]

こういう問題は日本の方に任せます。何がいい日本語とか何が丁寧とかは僕が決まるわけありません。違う国で生まれた人をいつまでも多くの「本当の日本人」に「外人」（つまり外の人）だとしか思われないのはちょっと悲しい事実かもしれませんが、しょうがないじゃないかな。

Edit:

「外人さん」は僕に結構丁寧に聞こえますが、特に好きでもありません。認識的に「外の人」を丁寧にした感じですね。

一方、「外国人」は「外の人」じゃなくて、「外の国の人」なので、差別の気がしません。でも、自分は時々めんどくさくって「外人」と自ら言います。それを聞いている日本人は可笑しいと思ったりします。でも、彼らはその言葉を使っていいなら、僕もいいじゃないですか。

Edited January 30, 2007 by Petr

[Gacktoh 0]

こういう問題は日本の方に任せます。何がいい日本語とか何が丁寧とかは僕が決まるわけありません。違う国で生まれた人をいつまでも多くの「本当の日本人」に「外人」（つまり外の人）だとしか思われないのはちょっと悲しい事実かもしれませんが、しょうがないじゃないかな。

Edit:

「外人さん」は僕に結構丁寧に聞こえますが、特に好きでもありません。認識的に「外の人」を丁寧にした感じですね。

一方、「外国人」は「外の人」じゃなくて、「外の国の人」なので、差別の気がしません。でも、自分は時々めんどくさくって「外人」と自ら言います。それを聞いている日本人は可笑しいと思ったりします。でも、彼らはその言葉を使っていいなら、僕もいいじゃないですか。

これはとても難しい問題かもしれないですね。どこの国に行っても、ある問題です。私が住んでいるマレーシアでも、同じような言葉は存在します。ただいつも思うことは、言われている人が嫌な思いをする言葉は使いたくないな、と

[ilovesumo 12]

私の考えは、 人、何でも国から来た、どこでも

住んでいるのは全部同じです。人間は人間です。

全部は同じ世界に住んでいます。 そのために (Holiday feeling...) (Blushing...)

[ilovesumo 12]

酒人........ (Sign of approval...) (Laughing...)

[Kintamayama 41,271]

I don't really mind either way-gaijin, gaikokujin, it's not the word. It's HOW one says it and in what context, that can sometimes cause problems..

[madorosumaru 7]

I don't really mind either way-gaijin, gaikokujin, it's not the word. It's HOW one says it and in what context, that can sometimes cause problems..

Kinta is right, again. From the mouths of certain females, "Honey" or "Sweetheart" could be the most disdainful word in the lexicon.

[Sasanishiki 57]

I don't particularly mind either. I know that many gaijin in Japan use 'gaijin' as a term, often a badge of honour, to express their position in society. I've just never really thought that gaijin-san is a particularly great term to use. Personally it seems to be taking a slang word and beautifying it. If you want to be more polite then the correct gaikokujin or one of the alternatives that Gacktoh suggested should suffice. However, as Petr said, what is acceptable or unacceptable Japanese should be decided upon by Japanese themselves (although who has the power to tell everyone how they should speak, even if they are Japanese?).

[ilovesumo 12]

However, as Petr said, what is acceptable or unacceptable Japanese should be decided upon by Japanese themselves

Well that's completely illogical. Should white people decide if the word "nigger" is ok or not? Should the English decide if "paddy" is an acceptable term for Irish people?

Gaijin is a discriminatory term no matter how you dress it up. I personally don't care if people use it as I said but that doesn't mean I don't support the right of others not to be described by it.

For what it's worth "gaikokujin" sounds no better to these ears. I don't like the term foreigner in any language. It's almost always used with some agenda.

Sou...

and that's why people can get hurt hearing it too often a day. This "Oh, a gaijin" is like pointing on somebody with a big nose saying "Oh, what a big nose"-everybody can see so no need to say it. My kimochi about that...

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Well that's completely illogical. Should white people decide if the word "nigger" is ok or not? Should the English decide if "paddy" is an acceptable term for Irish people?

Gaijin is a discriminatory term no matter how you dress it up. I personally don't care if people use it as I said but that doesn't mean I don't support the right of others not to be described by it.

For what it's worth "gaikokujin" sounds no better to these ears. I don't like the term foreigner in any language. It's almost always used with some agenda.

A slight topic henka, but what do you feel about African-Americans using the term "nigger" themselves? In cases such as this, it seems as though the formerly discriminated against group takes back a derogatory term, and makes it their own. While it's not acceptable for others to use that term, it appears as though its use is accepted by and amongst many African Americans. The same could be said (although on a much smaller scale) of "gaijin" in Japan. Many foreign residents use the word amongst their peers routinely, while taking offense when the local population utters it.

[Mark Buckton 1]

However, as Petr said, what is acceptable or unacceptable Japanese should be decided upon by Japanese themselves

Well that's completely illogical.

Should the English decide if "paddy" is an acceptable term for Irish people?

on the phrase 'illogical' - not at all. Would you have non-Irish impose upon yourself the terms they can and can't use because of the relatively recent negativity towards a particular word or phrase?

on the 'English deciding' phrase - yes they should - it is their language so why should the sensitivities of folk who have only (historically) recently become upset at this term affect them. Being Irish with your own tongue you are not forced to speak the language but you do - make a living off of it too! (Blushing...)

Would you impose your views of one word upon eternity and ignore the wisdom of your ancestors? (Shaking head...)

If so, I think this is a case of misunderstanding (the) etymology of the word Paddy and not yet seeing the bigger picture.

With a capital P, the term first originated as a pet form of Padraig (Patrick) in the late 18th century. (the lower case 'p' refers to a still earlier use of the word referring to the rice fields of Malaysia - then coming into contact with the nations of western Europe. Earliest know usage about 1620 odd).

Later, 'Mick' - short (and derogatory sadly) for Michael came into use by those wanting to insult - not nice but part and parcel of linguistic history.

In the mid 20th century, Paddy was 'black slang' and meant any white person - largely in the mainland US. Paddywhack was American slang for an Irishman and appeared around 100 years after the original pet form of the word and several decades after 'Mick' entered the vocabulary of the English.

I grew up in a city (Manchester) with a large percentage of folk calling themselves Irish or of Irish stock - my best friends included - and they, plus a LOT of Irish folk I've met since (including the 2 members of the Irish team attending Sakai last October) used Paddy in a friendly, pet form when talking of themselves and of others including non-Irish (myself included). If they were called Paddy by me - an English chappie it wouldn't matter one iota. Why would they be OK but not yourself?

Furthermore, Irish folk who joined the British forces during my time therein routinely had this term given and never so in any way other than as a form of friendship - I was called 'Manc' (from Manchester) - a person from Birminghan - Brummie. Scottish - Jock.

You might be playing the victim / oppressed by the English card again here Nishi but Mick would be the correct term not Paddy. If 'Paddy' were so offensive, why don't the millions and millions of 'Irish Americans' get upset with Paddywhack - not used in the modern day?

[Mark Buckton 1]

??? but if the irony is too much - lead the way, take a stand. Be proud.

I am proud to say my mother tongue is made up of a 'stew' of sorts of several hundred other languages.

I am proud to say English is not unique to the English people but is the world's language because it went to the world and learned from the experience.

I have studied Welsh on and off for 15 years - not because I am Welsh or carry Welsh ancestry (St. Patrick did though - before the Irish kidnapped him) but because I have been to Wales a hundred times, love the area, the folk and the food and I don't want to see the language, any language die.

Take the stand Nishi - gambatte kudasai - teach us Irish here in Off Topics - I would honestly love to leanr a few words and phrases.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Mark Buckton

[Fay 1,676]

I don't know what's all this good for, these english - irish pinpricks I read from time to time in the forum ...... (Blushing...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

My point was simply that if a word has been used in a pejorative fashion by group A towards group B, then group A cannot simply turn around and declare that the word now has no negative connotation. That decision can only lie with the group it was used against.

this would be true were the word always used in negative form but you ignore the documented and proven history of the word in making this claim.

Correct me if I am wrong but when you look at the history behind the usage of the word Paddy, shown in my first post in the thread and likely found online somewhere, as politically correct or not as it may be deemed by the Irish today, what you have done in becoming offended is to take the word out of context as being negative.

By doing so, this is an attempt to impose personal feelings of a word in a foreign language on the language use of others - native speakers.

This is akin to your comments on gaijin. With time or immersion in the culture comes the realisation that 99% of the time there is no ill intent by the Japanese.

Of course, there may be some English folk who see the reaction Paddy gets from modern day Irish who 'are' offended and 'want' to use it to 'grate'. If so, I would be annoyed by them but they have been given that opportunity by the victim in this case twisting the word i nthe first place.

Had Paddy been left in its original form - no worries.

I would ask though - you refer only to the English when I know or have known Scottish folk more than happy to used the word, Welsh too - especially Welsh in the British military - so, would their usage also 'grate'?

I have a feeling usage by the Scottish / Welsh speakers of English plus usage by non-English born English speakers (Europeans / Asians etc) would not be taken (so) offensively and would be interested to know your thoughts.

I can honestly say that being English, when I have used this word with Irish friends I have done so with no ill intent and even the Irish lads I have known, when talking negatively of a fellow Irishman have used the term 'daft Mick' - an offensive terms and one I have never knowingly used.

[Mark Buckton 1]

actually, Nish, FWIW - to give some background on why the Irish subjects interest me so - like yourself I too have a significant Irish background by way of the Kavanaghs of County Kildare.

Direct paternal line as straight as an arrow flies and documented to boot.

Were you to ask me if I am proud of this fact or not I would give a resounding YES. I would also add that I think this qualifies me to more than account for the above position on Paddy usage and having lineage both sides of the Irish Sea - uniquely so perhaps.

I have a Scottish grandparent too and am equally proud of that lineage - direct to the Maxwells of South Lanarkshire but that is another story.

[Gacktoh 0]

日本語でごめんなさい。

I don't really mind either way-gaijin, gaikokujin, it's not the word. It's HOW one says it and in what context, that can sometimes cause problems..

KintaさんやMadoさんが言っているように、悪意を持って使う人もいます。そういうのはダメ！ですよね。

でも悪意無く使う時があります。

例えば、国技館で沢山の海外からのファンの方を見たら、「凄い沢山外人さんいるねぇ～」と思うんです。言う事もあると思います。でもそれは、差別しているのではなくて、Ｎｉｓｉさんが言っていたように「内と外」の日本の文化の様なものなのです。その事を理解していない方には、「外人」と聞いただけで、嫌な気持ちになるかな？と思ったのです。

IlovesumoさんやPetrさんが言うように、本当は皆同じ人間です。区別する必要は無いんです。それもわかっているんですけれど、「外国の人いっぱい、いる。」との感想は悪意無く持ちます。特に、国技館で海外からのファンの方を多く見ると、私は嬉しいです。嬉しくて、「外国の人いっぱいだね」となるんです。このフォーラムを見つけた時も嬉しかったんです。「海外の人がこんなに相撲好きで、こんなに知識持っているなんて

[Petr 0]

国技館で沢山の白人を見ても、国籍わからないでしょう？ :-D

[Kaikitsune Makoto 189]

外人と言う言葉は多分外国人という言葉よりずっと仲間に入られない感じがする。外国人という言葉はフィンランド人にとって普通の言葉だけ。フィンランド語ではULKOMAALAINENだ。ULKOは外、MAALAINENは国人。じっと考えても何か他の沢山使われるフィンランド語の言葉を思い付かない。ULKOLAINENという言葉はたまたまに使われるけどそれは普通じゃない。ULKOLAINENは文字的に訳したら外人だ。ULKOMAALAINENはニュースとか酔っ払い人の外国人に対して批判的な態度が流れる会話中も聞こえる。つまり、僕にとって外国人は全然差別印象が与えない。外人もオーケーですけどそれではその　ここに属しない　と言う意味もちょっと反映する。日本人は日本人だ。もし日本人じゃないと、海外出身の人だよ。そうして外国人は定義的に具体的な表現だけで、何も丁寧じゃない響きがないだろう。

Edited February 2, 2007 by Kaikitsune Makoto

[Gacktoh 0]

国技館で沢山の白人を見ても、国籍わからないでしょう？ (Neener, neener...)

確かにわかりませんね。

日本はもう少し時間がかかるでしょうね。島国ですから、なかなか難しいとは思いますが、少しずつ変わっていくと思います。期待しましょう！

外人と言う言葉は多分外国人という言葉よりずっと仲間に入られない感じがする。外国人という言葉はフィンランド人にとって普通の言葉だけ。フィンランド語ではULKOMAALAINENだ。ULKOは外、MAALAINENは国人。じっと考えても何か他の沢山使われるフィンランド語の言葉を思い付かない。ULKOLAINENという言葉はたまたまに使われるけどそれは普通じゃない。ULKOLAINENは文字的に訳したら外人だ。ULKOMAALAINENはニュースとか酔っ払い人の外国人に対して批判的な態度が流れる会話中も聞こえる。つまり、僕にとって外国人は全然差別印象が与えない。外人もオーケーですけどそれではその　ここに属しない　と言う意味もちょっと反映する。日本人は日本人だ。もし日本人じゃないと、海外出身の人だよ。そうして外国人は定義的に具体的な表現だけで、何も丁寧じゃない響きがないだろう。

フィンランド語も面白いですね。マレーシアの言葉で、「マサレ」という言葉があり、白人の方々を指します。凄い悪い言葉です。

「外人」は日本語もフィンランド語も同じように、疎外感はありますね。仲間じゃない感じがします。

私は日本に長く住んでいない日本人です。日本語もちょっと変です。なので多分私も「変な外人」です。 :-D