Doitsuyama 1,192 Posted January 21, 2007 Asashoryu beat Kotooshu easily to cap his 20th yusho with a 14-1 final score. Toyonoshima got his first ever two sansho awarded (kanto-sho and gino-sho), even before his final bout. He justified that decision with a strong katasukashi against sekiwake Kotomitsuki to finish two wins ahead of five rikishi at 10-5. No other sansho were awarded. I would actually have thought a sansho for Ama was a possibility as he was the sole rikishi below ozeki in the joi-jin to finish with double digit wins, as he beat Kisenosato to give the young komusubi his first make-koshi since Kyushu 2005. Kotoshogiku got the short stick on this banzuke as he got only to M1e with a 10-5 from M2e, and with the loss of Kisenosato he will skip the komusubi rank altogether as he will be the second sekiwake, replacing Miyabiyama. Ama will be back at komusubi with the 10-5 result, and it looks like Tokitenku missed a great chance for komusubi promotion as he lost to Takekaze with okurihikiotoshi, as it Toyonoshima may be coming from behind to get the second komusubi slot with the 12-3 from M9w. The top of maegashira isn't empty with Tokitenku and Asasekiryu claiming the M1 positions, likely leaving Kyokutenho and Kisenosato at M2. Or, given the recent politics of smaller movements, Kisenosato may end ahead of Asasekiryu on M1. Sekiwake Miyabiyama loses his last bout as well to finish 5-10 and drop down to M3. In the lower maegashira many rikishi were at 7-7, some managed to get the kachi-koshi, some failed, most notably Iwakiyama losing to Ushiomaru. 8 of the lowest 12 rikishi finished kachi-koshi, but there still are too many possible demotions with Asofuji, Toyozakura, Otsukasa and Jumonji for juryo to come up with viable promotion candidates as only the scores of Tochiozan, Shimotori and Wakanosato look quaified enough. I guess Jumonji gets lucky and stays in makuuchi. Tochiozan and Shimotori also got into a tomoe-sen for the juryo yusho along with Toyohibiki after Shimotori suffered a tsuridashi loss to Goeido in the final honbasho bout. The first round saw each of the three winning one bout, but then Toyohibiki got the second consecutive win against Shimotori. It's the first time for a shin-juryo to win the yusho since 1998 Kyushu when Miyabiyama did it as the third of his four consecutive yusho to start the career. Kisenosato will lose his attribute as youngest makuuchi rikishi next basho when Tochiozan will be debuting in the highest division. Tochiozan is eight mnths younger than Kisenosato and will have his 20th birthday two days before next basho starts. He will officially debut as a 19 years old though as the banzuke publication date is the date of choice here. -- Doitsuyama Day 15 Juryo J11w Oga (6-9) oshidashi Ms5e Kanbayashi (3-4) J12w Wakanoho (5-10) yorikiri J8w Kyokunankai (6-9) J14e Toyohibiki (10-5) hatakikomi J7e Ryuo (8-7) J6e Takanowaka (8-7) tsukiotoshi J12e Kobo (9-6) J5w Ryuho (7-8) yorikiri J14w Daimanazuru (8-7) J6w Kaiho (9-6) sukuinage J5e Tamarikido (4-11) J4w Wakanosato (9-6) tsukidashi J13w Koryu (8-7) J13e Bushuyama (9-6) uwatenage J4e Hochiyama (8-7) J10w Goeido (8-7) tsuridashi J3w Shimotori (10-5) J11e Hakuba (8-7) yorikiri J3e Satoyama (7-8) J2w Tochiozan (10-5) yorikiri J9e Shunketsu (8-7) J2e Katayama (6-9) katasukashi J7w Masatsukasa (8-7) J8e Tochisakae (8-7) oshidashi J1w Kitazakura (6-9) Makuuchi M14e Tamanoshima (10-5) hikiotoshi M16w Otsukasa (7-8) M13w Yoshikaze (8-7) oshidashi M15e Asofuji (4-11) M13e Kasuganishiki (9-6) yorikiri M14w Hakurozan (8-7) M16e Tosanoumi (8-7) yorikiri M12e Toyozakura (3-12) M11w Tochinohana (5-10) oshidashi J1e Hokutoriki (6-9) M15w Ushiomaru (9-6) yorikiri M10e Iwakiyama (7-8) M8e Kakuryu (6-9) tsuridashi M9e Kakizoe (8-7) M7w Futeno (8-7) yorikiri M12w Tokitsuumi (8-7) M11e Tamakasuga (9-6) hikiotoshi M6w Tochinonada (6-9) M6e Asasekiryu (10-5) uwatenage M10w Jumonji (4-11) M7e Kasugao (8-7) uwatenage M4w Homasho (7-8) M8w Takekaze (8-7) okurihikiotoshiM2e Tokitenku (8-7) M1w Dejima (4-11) oshidashi M2w Aminishiki (4-11) M1e Kotoshogiku (9-6) yorikiri M5e Takamisakari (7-8) M5w Kokkai (7-8) yorikiri K1w Roho (3-12) M4e Ama (10-5) shitatenage K1e Kisenosato (7-8) M3e Kyokutenho (8-7) uwatedashinage S1w Miyabiyama (5-10) M9w Toyonoshima (12-3) katasukashi S1e Kotomitsuki (8-7) O3w Hakuho (10-5) yorikiri O2w Chiyotaikai (10-5) O2e Kaio (8-7) uwatenage O1w Tochiazuma (5-10) Y1e Asashoryu (14-1) sukuinage O1e Kotooshu (9-6) Juryo yusho tomoe-sen J3w Shimotori unknown J14e Toyohibiki J2w Tochiozan unknown J3w Shimotori J14e Toyohibiki unknown J2w Tochiozan J14e Toyohibiki oshidashi J3w Shimotori List of sansho Shukun-sho: not awarded Kanto-sho: Toyonoshima (1st) Gino-sho: Toyonoshima (1st) List of yusho Jonokuchi: Hisanoumi Jonidan: Oseumi Sandanme: Kagaya Makushita: Sakaizawa Juryo: Toyohibiki (1st) Makuuchi: Asashoryu (20th) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shimpu 0 Posted January 21, 2007 I believe Kisenosato will drop only half rank to secure KW slot, Kotoshogiku goes for SW and Ama for KE. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 125 Posted January 21, 2007 is it out of the question for Toyonoshima to get the Kw spot? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,192 Posted January 21, 2007 is it out of the question for Toyonoshima to get the Kw spot? As I wrote in the thread starting post, I believe he'll get it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tony 16 Posted January 21, 2007 Nice perf for Hakuba who won his last five bouts and got KK. Subarashi! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted January 21, 2007 (Applauding...) Thanks for the informations all the days (Applauding...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fukurou 534 Posted January 21, 2007 Asashoryu beat Kotooshu easily to cap his 20th yusho with a 14-1 final score. Toyonoshima got his first ever two sansho awarded (kanto-sho and gino-sho), even before his final bout. He justified that decision with a strong katasukashi against sekiwake Kotomitsuki to finish two wins ahead of five rikishi at 10-5.No other sansho were awarded. I would actually have thought a sansho for Ama was a possibility as he was the sole rikishi below ozeki in the joi-jin to finish with double digit wins, as he beat Kisenosato to give the young komusubi his first make-koshi since Kyushu 2005. This really surprised me. Just what does a Maegashira 4 have to do to get a prize if 10-5 record (3rd best), a win against the Jun-Yusho winner, 1-1 record against the Ozeki, and 1-1 against the Sekiwake and Komusubi isn't good enough? I guess he should have beaten the Yokozuna too. OTOH, while Toyonoshima was 12-3 for the Jun-Yusho, he did not face the Yokozuna, did not face any Ozeki, and was 1-0 against the rest of the Sanyaku, which he did not face until Day 15 (Kotomitsuki). Were some skids being greased here? Actually, I have that question for several of the Day 15 matches. No one yell at me, but on the face of it, it does give the appearance that the schedule makers were trying to arrange KK for certain rikishi, or at least pad a few records. For example: M13W Yoshikaze (7-7) vs M15E Asofuji (4-10) M16e Tosanoumi (7-7) vs M12e Toyozakura (3-11) M6e Asasekiryu (9-5) vs M10w Jumonji (4-10) M5w Kokkai (6-8) vs K1w Roho (3-11) In all cases, the guy with the better record won. (yeah, I know, they had probably already faced each other, but that doesn't mean it still doesn't look odd) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted January 21, 2007 (edited) Were some skids being greased here? Like when Ama won the kanto-sho with an 11-4 from M6e four months ago, facing just four sanyaku (and losing to three of them)? :-P As far as I can tell, the journalists on the sansho selection committee a) like to share things around, and Ama already won two sansho last year, and b) are as susceptible to flavour-of-the-month thinking as anyone, so guys having their first really big basho (like Homasho last time, and Toyonoshima this basho) tend to fare pretty well in the balloting. Add in the recent tendency to award each sansho at most once per basho, and there wasn't anything left for Ama. BTW, Ama only faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku rikishi this basho, and his Maegashira opponents mostly weren't in the joi-jin (M1e, M3e, M4w, M5e, M5w, M6e, M6w, M7w, M9w). I probably would have given him the kanto-sho for his 10 wins, but I can see why they didn't. Edited January 21, 2007 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
madorosumaru 7 Posted January 21, 2007 This really surprised me. Just what does a Maegashira 4 have to do to get a prize if 10-5 record (3rd best), a win against the Jun-Yusho winner, 1-1 record against the Ozeki, and 1-1 against the Sekiwake and Komusubi isn't good enough? I guess he should have beaten the Yokozuna too. Like when Ama won the kanto-sho with an 11-4 from M6e four months ago, facing just four sanyaku (and losing to three of them)? :-P As far as I can tell, the journalists on the sansho selection committee a) like to share things around, and Ama already won two sansho last year, and b) are as susceptible to flavour-of-the-month thinking as anyone, so guys having their first really big basho (like Homasho last time, and Toyonoshima this basho) tend to fare pretty well in the balloting. Add in the recent tendency to award each sansho at most once per basho, and there wasn't anything left for Ama.BTW, Ama only faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku rikishi this basho, and his Maegashira opponents mostly weren't in the joi-jin (M1e, M3e, M4w, M5e, M5w, M6e, M6w, M7w, M9w). I probably would have given him the kanto-sho for his 10 wins, but I can see why they didn't. Ama was a bit disappointed: "I thought I would get a sansho, since I beat Kisenosato." But I would tend to agree with Asashosakari. The committee looks for "outstanding" efforts or at mininum, "out of ordinary" achievements. Even though he was ranked at m4, Ama has established himself as a "sanyaku-level" rikishi. By that, I mean he has had enough victories over sanyaku personnel without it being considered a major upset. In this basho, he beat two ozeki, but it was Kotooshu's third defeat on Day 8 and Kaio's sixth loss. Nothing to write home about. Yes, he did win over the jun-yusho rikishi, but, then, he has never lost to the guy before (this was his sixth straight over Toyo). Even Kisenosato would have to be considered a peer. In the eyes of the committee, pehaps a very good tournament, but not quite "outstanding." Like Asashosakari, I would have given an award to Ama, but, then . . . I'm easy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fukurou 534 Posted January 22, 2007 Like when Ama won the kanto-sho with an 11-4 from M6e four months ago, facing just four sanyaku (and losing to three of them)? In September, Ama faced his 4 sanyaku opponents on Day 11-14 (and had M1E Baruto on Day 9 plus 3 more of the joi-jin). Only 6 of Ama's opponents were ranked M7 or lower. In January this basho, Toyonoshima faced 11 M7 or lower opponents, and only 1 sanyaku. To be blunt, IMO Ama got his prizes in September after facing stronger opposition than Toyonoshima did when he got his in January. BTW, Ama only faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku rikishi this basho, and his Maegashira opponents mostly weren't in the joi-jin (M1e, M3e, M4w, M5e, M5w, M6e, M6w, M7w, M9w). Might want to do some homework on that statement because the only thing you got right was that Ama faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku. Joi-jin are the 20 highest ranked rikishi (see the Sumo Forum's glossary). This basho, the #20 ranked rikishi was M5W Kokkai. Of Ama's 15 opponents, 11 were of the joi-jin. (the other 4 were Asasekiryu, Tochinonada, Futeno, and Toyonoshima himself). M9W Toyonoshima was the lowest ranking rikishi that Ama faced (won vs O1E Kotooshu, O2E Kaio, KE Kisenosato, M3E Kyokutenho, M4W Homasho, M5E Takamisakari, M6E Asasekiryu, M6W Tochinonada, M7W Futeno and M9W Toyonoshima; lost vs YE Asashoryu, O2W Chiyotaikai, SE Kotomitsuki, M1E Kotoshogiku, and M5W Kokkai). M4E Ama was the 2nd highest rikishi Toyonoshima faced (won vs SE Kotomitsuki, M5E Takamisakari, M6E Asasekiryu, M7E Kasugao, M8E Kakuryu, M9E Kakizoe, M10W Jumonji, M11E Tamakasuga, M11W Tochinohana, M13W Yoshikaze, M14E Tamanoshima and M15W Ushiomaru; lost vs M4E Ama, M7W Futeno, M12E Toyozakura). btw - however they're coming off, my comments have nothing to do with taking prizes away from Toyonoshima (although why not facing the sanyaku and getting half your wins against rikishi ranked M10 and below is prizeworthy, I'll never figure out), but more to do with why didn't Ama get one. (I can think of an obvious reason that hasn't been raised here, but I'm not going to stoop that low) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) To be blunt, IMO Ama got his prizes in September after facing stronger opposition than Toyonoshima did when he got his in January. He was also a former komusubi at that point, while Toyonoshima has never been higher than M6. You're certainly free to ignore that fact, but I thought your purpose in asking about it was to understand why the sansho committee decided the way they did, and notwithstanding your personal ideal sansho criteria, it's simply something that plays a big role in the real process. BTW, Ama only faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku rikishi this basho, and his Maegashira opponents mostly weren't in the joi-jin (M1e, M3e, M4w, M5e, M5w, M6e, M6w, M7w, M9w). Might want to do some homework on that statement because the only thing you got right was that Ama faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku. My, aren't we snarky today. (Neener, neener...) Joi-jin are the 20 highest ranked rikishi (see the Sumo Forum's glossary). Okay, I did see the glossary. Unsurprisingly, you misunderstood what you were reading. joijin, about twenty highest ranked rikishi; yaku-rikishi and maegashira-joi who fight against each other in honbasho The defining part is the bolded section, not the other part. The glossary was originally written around the turn of the decade, when the joi-jin frequently included multiple rikishi from the same stables, and many basho also featured one or more kyujo Yokozuna or Ozeki. Back then, it was indeed true that even the #20 ranked rikishi would often face most of the sanyaku rikishi. Nowadays that's much less true. As a result, #17 Ama was the lowest-ranked rikishi this basho to see any significant sanyaku action, and even that happened only because of Baruto's withdrawal. In other words, everybody ranked below Ama himself can't be considered part of the joi-jin for Hatsu basho, which means that 7 of his 9 Maegashira opponents weren't in the joi-jin. At most I'd give you M4w Homasho as an additional borderline joi-jin rikishi, since he did face three sanyaku and most of his Maegashira opponents were from the M1-M4 area. That still means Ama faced six Maegashira from outside the joi-jin. Anything else you'd like me to do your homework on? :-P Not that this "were they or weren't they in the joi" question really matters at all...former sanyaku rikishi are ignored by the sansho committee all the time. Wakanosato was 11-4 as M2w and didn't win one (2005.07), and Kyokutenho was also 11-4 as M5e and didn't win one either (2006.03). Kotooshu won 10 bouts at M5e after he dropped from Komusubi and didn't win a sansho (2005.05). Kyokutenho (yet again) was 10-5 at M3w in 2005.09 without a sansho. Tosanoumi was 10-5 at M3e in 2005.03 and nope, no sansho for him. And so on, and on, and on. Sometimes these guys will get lucky and get a sansho for such performances, either because their sumo was particularly impressive or because there's no better candidate. Ama didn't get lucky due to Toyonoshima's performance, end of story. Your comments do make me wonder if you even realize that Ama has won three (!) sansho before, one of them for a 9-6 (!!) from M11w (!!!) - and another one wasn't much to write home about either, being awarded for an 8-7 at M2e. Would you like to see a few of those revoked retroactively? Edited January 22, 2007 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaiguma 0 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) (I can think of an obvious reason that hasn't been raised here, but I'm not going to stoop that low) Well you already did in a way . . . but I can assume from your posturing that you don't personally believe it's because he is gaijin. Judging from recent recipients of sansho, it would be a pretty ridiculous claim. Asashosakari puts it best by pointing out the inconsistencies in the process of giving the awards. The pattern might be more or less predictable, but each individual prize is, to a degree, awarded arbitrarily. And by journalists, mind you. I don't buy the "recent tendency to award each sansho at most once per basho" because if I remeber correctly, they gave out doubles at least twice last year. And by doubles I mean the same sansho to 2 different rikishi. In fact, at least one of those times they did so while only giving out 2 of 3. And the 'spread it around theory' might apply today, but browsing through goo profiles I notice quite a few rikishi who've racked up loads of the same prize over and over. They're mostly has-beens or fading fast, so maybe Asashosakari speaks of a more recent trend. The closest thing I can come up with in terms of a likely 'explanation' is the spread between 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place records. 14(1) -> 12(1) -> 10(5) does kind of make the 10-5 look pretty paltry. And it shows that despite the hype of daily leaderboards with oddball names like Ushiomaru on them, Ama didn't really affect the yusho race at all, even by defeating Toyonoshima. Okay, so if Ama hadn't beaten Toyonoshima and Asashoryu had lost to Kotooshu, then we would have had a kettei-sen! That's the biggest iffing if I've seen in a long while. And please, Asa would have beaten 'The Count' in a playoff for the yusho even if Kotooshu had just given him a compound fracture above the right elbow in the musubi no ichiban. Let's be real. And try not to compare the torikumi of Ama and Toyonoshima so objectively against one another. Others are right to note that each one is being considered more against his own potential and history. All that said, I would have given Ama the gino-sho in a heartbeat, but then I'm extremely biased (Neener, neener...) and I'm happy enough knowing he'll make it back to Komusubi come Haru :-P [EDIT: I wrote this at the same time as Asashosakari, so sorry if I repeated anything. I didn't realize that any of the glossary might be outdated. Who wrote it originally and who is in charge of upkeep? And you missed your chance to say it was written at the turn of the century, or even the turn of the millenium, which would have had a lot more punch! (Eek...) Edited January 22, 2007 by kaiguma Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fukurou 534 Posted January 22, 2007 To be blunt, IMO Ama got his prizes in September after facing stronger opposition than Toyonoshima did when he got his in January. He was also a former komusubi at that point, while Toyonoshima has never been higher than M6. You're certainly free to ignore that fact, but I thought your purpose in asking about it was to understand why the sansho committee decided the way they did, and notwithstanding your personal ideal sansho criteria, it's simply something that plays a big role in the real process. OK. BTW, Ama only faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku rikishi this basho, and his Maegashira opponents mostly weren't in the joi-jin (M1e, M3e, M4w, M5e, M5w, M6e, M6w, M7w, M9w). Might want to do some homework on that statement because the only thing you got right was that Ama faced 6 of the 10 sanyaku. My, aren't we snarky today. (Eek...) Yes I am. I'm just following a tradition of this forum - just about *everybody* here gets snarky in at least half of their posts (sometimes I really truly agree with Doreen about this place; othertimes I think it's a good opportunity to learn things (besides improving on snark-technique :-P ). maybe I just spend to much time at Television Without Pity, which bears the motto "spare the snark, spoil the networks") Joi-jin are the 20 highest ranked rikishi (see the Sumo Forum's glossary). Okay, I did see the glossary. Unsurprisingly, you misunderstood what you were reading. joijin, about twenty highest ranked rikishi; yaku-rikishi and maegashira-joi who fight against each other in honbasho The defining part is the bolded section, not the other part. The glossary was originally written around the turn of the decade, when the joi-jin frequently included multiple rikishi from the same stables, and many basho also featured one or more kyujo Yokozuna or Ozeki. Back then, it was indeed true that even the #20 ranked rikishi would often face most of the sanyaku rikishi. Nowadays that's much less true. As a result, #17 Ama was the lowest-ranked rikishi this basho to see any significant sanyaku action, and even that happened only because of Baruto's withdrawal. In other words, everybody ranked below Ama himself can't be considered part of the joi-jin for Hatsu basho, which means that 7 of his 9 Maegashira opponents weren't in the joi-jin. At most I'd give you M4w Homasho as an additional borderline joi-jin rikishi, since he did face three sanyaku and most of his Maegashira opponents were from the M1-M4 area. That still means Ama faced six Maegashira from outside the joi-jin. Anything else you'd like me to do your homework on? (Neener, neener...) Updating the glossary to read in plain English? I had to look up "yaku-rikishi" (yokozuna + sanyaku) and "maegashira-joi" (10 highest maegashira) before I could even attempt to figure out what ranks fell under "joi-jin". And still apparently got it wrong, even though that does add up to 20 rikishi for this basho. Your comments do make me wonder if you even realize that Ama has won three (!) sansho before, one of them for a 9-6 (!!) from M11w (!!!) - Yes I did. I just don't like seeing athletes getting screwed over by sports writers. (Major League Baseball Hall of Fame voting drives me absolutely bananas) and another one wasn't much to write home about either, being awarded for an 8-7 at M2e. Would you like to see a few of those revoked retroactively? As I said before, I'm not saying they should take away from Toyonoshima. I'm saying I think they should have given to Ama too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted January 22, 2007 (edited) I don't buy the "recent tendency to award each sansho at most once per basho" because if I remeber correctly, they gave out doubles at least twice last year. And by doubles I mean the same sansho to 2 different rikishi. In fact, at least one of those times they did so while only giving out 2 of 3. It's not something I've run any rigorous analysis on, certainly. But it's been my impression that multiple sansho of the same type usually happen only when the respective performances practically scream for it. Let's say Toyonoshima's 12-3 plus a debuting Komusubi with a 10-5 (but without beating Asashoryu), that would pretty much demand two kanto-sho. Actually, it's quite possible that it was always like that and I've only noticed it lately. As for your last point - the sansho aren't perfect substitutes of one another, especially not the shukun-sho. So while it sometimes seems that a kanto-sho-worthy rikishi will get the gino-sho instead (because nobody else really looked good, and because the gino-sho criteria are pretty nebulous in the first place), it's definitely not unusual to see e.g. 2 KS, 1 GS, 0 SS handed out. They just wouldn't turn that into 1 KS, 1 GS, 1 SS, because that's not how the shukun-sho "works". And the 'spread it around theory' might apply today, but browsing through goo profiles I notice quite a few rikishi who've racked up loads of the same prize over and over. They're mostly has-beens or fading fast, so maybe Asashosakari speaks of a more recent trend. Just spend some time browsing mid-1990s banzukes at Hakkeyoi, and you'll see why. Those highly-decorated guys were the cream of the crop below a very dominant group of Yokozuna and Ozeki back then, and what's worse, there just weren't very many sansho-worthy performances outside of that select group - that group being Tosanoumi, Tochiazuma, Kaio, Akinoshima, Musoyama, Takatoriki, Kotonishiki, and that was pretty much it for more than half a decade worth of tournaments. Instead, Makuuchi was chockfull with rikishi who'd reliably get kachi-koshi as mid- and lower Maegashira (but rarely touching 10 wins) and then bomb out as joijin (and thus not sansho-eligible in the first place). Today the banzuke dynamics are a bit different - much fewer extreme promotions for 8-7 rikishi mainly, so rikishi spend more basho close to their "real" rank - and additionally we're currently seeing the rise of a lot of young new talent. Who knows, five year from now the situation might well mirror the mid-90s and the discussion will be whether Ama is more deserving of his 11th sansho or Homasho of his 9th. (Eek...) [EDIT: I wrote this at the same time as Asashosakari, so sorry if I repeated anything. I didn't realize that any of the glossary might be outdated. Who wrote it originally and who is in charge of upkeep? And you missed your chance to say it was written at the turn of the century, or even the turn of the millenium, which would have had a lot more punch! :-P Heh, that's a pet peeve of mine. I occasionally edit term and seminar papers for my friends, and one of them recently included a sentence about "events of the last millennium", when the events he referred to all happened between 1970 and 2000. I was not amused. (Neener, neener...) Anyway, I believe the glossary is updated on an as-needed basis, and really the statement "joijin = about 20 highest-ranking rikishi" isn't so inaccurate, it just shouldn't be taken at complete face value. And it could well be on the mark again in a few years...we now have 3 Sadogatake rikishi in sanyaku, and some stables like Tokitsukaze, Sakaigawa and Onoe might well have multiple joijin not too far from today. Not to mention Asashoryu/Asasekiryu and Ama/Aminishiki right now. The last couple of years were a bit of an aberration in that regard. (Ancient but somewhat on-topic thread here.) Edit: BTW, further down in that thread you'll see my 3 year-old predictions for which heyas could become the next powerhouse stables...read and laugh at how wrong it's all turned out. I got Sadogatake somewhat right, but everything else...sheesh. Edited January 22, 2007 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 19,543 Posted January 22, 2007 Updating the glossary to read in plain English? Well, it's a glossary, not a dictionary... (First prize...) I realize that the glossary sometimes makes you jump from one technical term to the next (I've gotten lost in it myself on occasion), but unless one prefers to read about "frontal crush-outs" instead of yoritaoshi etc. the abundance of Japanese terms just comes with the territory. I just don't like seeing athletes getting screwed over by sports writers. Nobody's getting screwed, you simply have a different opinion on what kind of performance should qualify as sansho-worthy. These prizes are a bonus, not a right, so as long as they're reasonably consistent about their criteria (and they are) the sansho committee just isn't doing anything wrong here, even if you don't believe their criteria make any sense. As mado-san pointed out earlier, the big thing about sansho is that they're supposed to require "out of the ordinary" performances. For the shukun-sho that means winning over the yusho rikishi or a Yokozuna, which makes sense as beating a guy who rarely loses is pretty much the definition of "out of the ordinary", especially for Maegashira-ranked rikishi. For the kanto-sho it means a level of overall performance that the rikishi has not performed previously - that's why Toyonoshima qualifies and Ama is at most a borderline candidate. He may still be young but he's simply expected now to get around 10 wins against a half sanyaku/half mid-Maegashira diet of opponents. Kyokutenho, Tamanoshima, Roho or Kokkai wouldn't get a sansho for that, either. With the gino-sho things get a little more murky because the criteria for the prize itself aren't as well-defined, but in many cases the prize goes to rikishi who unexpectedly presented technically sound sumo, hence even guys like Iwakiyama and Kakizoe have a gino-sho to their credit. If it was only about the absolute level of technical wizardry you could give the gino-sho to Ama every time he gets a kachi-koshi, but the quality of his performances simply isn't unexpected anymore, and he'd need to do something even more special than usual to earn another one. BTW, I don't think it's an accident that the gino-sho is by far the most "volatile" prize of among the sansho...only four active rikishi have won more than two in their career (Tokitsuumi 4, Chiyotaikai 3, Dejima 3, Aminishiki 3) and theirs were mostly awarded quite a while ago. Tokitsuumi's second gino-sho was exactly five years ago (2002.01), and Aminishiki's first came right afterwards (2002.03) - so in the almost five years since then (29 basho), no rikishi has won more than two of them. Compare that to the kanto-sho: twelve rikishi with 3+ overall, three rikishi with 3+ in the last five years - and the shukun-sho: eight 3+ rikishi overall, one in the last five years, even though the shukun-sho is awarded more rarely than the others (just 18 times since 2002, compared to 41 kanto-sho and 28 gino-sho). In other words, Ama's way to the sansho he's most "suited for" (the gino-sho) is somewhat blocked because the voters have become used to his technical performances and at any rate like to be pretty creative in who they're awarding it to, and for the kanto-sho his Hatsu basho performance just wasn't strong enough compared to what's expected of him. He should have beaten the yokozuna, that would have been an automatic shukun-sho, no matter if he wins 8, 9 or 10 of his other bouts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoseiya Yuichi 3 Posted January 22, 2007 The glossary shouldn't be taken as any kind of gospel. After all, it's mostly my work originally although Kaikitsune was of huge help in translating it to English and Manekineko weeded a lot of mistakes out. My belated thanks go out to them. It's partially outdated, no doubt about that. It's also partially Finglish and not proper English. What can one expect from a guy who after 30 years of exposure still hasn't learnt to use gender specific pronouns etc.? (Holiday feeling...) I'd love to see the glossary part of the repository project. Native Japanese would probably be very helpful in correcting and perfecting it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
