Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 Nice table! I have a quiz question somewhat losely connected to this thread (persistence!). I know of an active rikishi who went make-koshi in all six division debuts, from jonokuchi to makuuchi. There might be more than one, but not likely. Who is it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 124 Posted January 16, 2007 funny thing is i actually tried to check this through hakkeyoi but who am i fooling ??? i cannot use the damn thing !!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,783 Posted January 16, 2007 Nice table! I have a quiz question somewhat losely connected to this thread (persistence!). I know of an active rikishi who went make-koshi in all six division debuts, from jonokuchi to makuuchi. There might be more than one, but not likely. Who is it? Hehehe...I noticed that myself a little while ago, so I'm not gonna spoil the answer. BTW, did I miss anybody in the table? Shikinokawa and Kakutoriki looked like probable candidates with their sub-.400 career win%, but I don't have their early basho records. (Tenryuzan's another suspect.) And of course the eternal Kasachikara, but I know you don't have his early records available either... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 BTW, did I miss anybody in the table? Shikinokawa and Kakutoriki looked like probable candidates with their sub-.400 career win%, but I don't have their early basho records. (Tenryuzan's another suspect.) And of course the eternal Kasachikara, but I know you don't have his early records available either... I have no time to really check that question. But Shikinokawa got kachi-koshi in his second basho - he just didn't improve much. Kakutoriki got close but he escaped with a KK in his ninth basho, to get a 0-7 spanking in the jonidan debut. Kasachikara I don't have, only all with hatsu dohyo from Natsu 1988 onward. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,806 Posted January 16, 2007 No use to bother with Hakkeyoi, because it only covers the first three divisions. But here's a guess: Ryuho? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 No use to bother with Hakkeyoi, because it only covers the first three divisions. But here's a guess: Ryuho? Excellent - but he was 5-2 in jonokuchi, so not correct. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,806 Posted January 16, 2007 Alright, probably unfair, but last shot in the dark: Daimanazuru Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 Alright, probably unfair, but last shot in the dark: Daimanazuru Another good guess, MK from sandanme debut onward. But he was KK in jonokuchi and jonidan debut. I checked now, and Ryuho is the only active rikishi even coming close to our mystery persister. I might add, that the rikishi in question is really persistent in achieving higher ranks, even if it always lasted a while. He seems to closely fail in the last step to ultimate persistence, but you never know as long as he is still active. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hakuyobaku 33 Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) Hakuho maybe? edit: well that was quite a hint, Doits. anyway I didn't see that post before I posted myself :) another: Heh, I was even more sure that I guessed it right after Doitsuyama's hint - it fits Hakuho perfectly, as far as my English can tell. I just thought there aren't many guys who went MK in Jonokouchi and made it to the top but on the other hand some 16 year old kids then might have.. Edited January 16, 2007 by Hakuyobaku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 Hakuho maybe? Nope - make-koshi only in jonokuchi debut, five kachi-koshi in the rest. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 124 Posted January 16, 2007 kotoshogiku (without checking anything, just the "persistent" comment made me think of him) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 16, 2007 kotoshogiku (without checking anything, just the "persistent" comment made me think of him) Not good, he was 6-1, 7-0, 5-2, 6-1, 10-5 from jonokuchi to juryo debuts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aderechelsea 124 Posted January 16, 2007 BULLSEYE !!!!! (Laughing...) (Laughing...) (Blushing...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,783 Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) Alright, probably unfair, but last shot in the dark: Daimanazuru Another good guess, MK from sandanme debut onward. But he was KK in jonokuchi and jonidan debut. I checked now, and Ryuho is the only active rikishi even coming close to our mystery persister. Just to confuse the issue a little further, let's name two sekitori who were MK in all four lower divisions but never made it to Makuuchi (so they're not who Doitsuyama is looking for): Kyokunankai 1993.05 Jk9w 3-4 1993.09 Jd171e 3-4 1995.11 Sd99e 2-5 1999.03 Ms60w 3-4 Maikaze 1992.05 Jk19w 3-2-2 1992.09 Jd81e 2-5 1994.07 Sd87w 2-5 1997.09 Ms59e 3-4 As a bonus Maikaze also went MK in his Juryo debut (6-9), while Kyokunankai broke his streak with an 8-7. Edited January 16, 2007 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,806 Posted January 16, 2007 Alright, very first to last guess: Asofuji? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yoma 0 Posted January 16, 2007 I'm pretty sure I know who it is since he's my favourite rikishi (Not my Avatar Rikishi, though). Actually, I'm certain it's him. But I'm not gonna tell either ;) I once asked a Japanese friend of mine about the exact meaning of his shikona and after much thinking and looking up words in a dictionary he said it probably stands for an outstanding warrior, winning a battle practically on his own, possibly sacrificing his own life doing so ... I don't know how reliable that information is though, since that friend of mine is not a Sumo fan and he is not familiar with shikonas that much but it sounds great I think. :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,783 Posted January 16, 2007 Not to let this linger overnight: Alright, very first to last guess: Asofuji? Nope, kachi-koshi in Jonokuchi and Jonidan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaiomitsuki 408 Posted January 17, 2007 (edited) Maybe Kaio My answer is Kaio too (aka Koga) 5/1988 Jonokuchi debut 3-4 .... his first win - the second day of the Natsu 1988 - was against Kobayashi... Koga wins his first two career fights but the 5th day of this basho he loses his first ever fight and it was against Wakahanada (the futur Wakanohana III)... The 13th day of the Natsu 1988, he loses his 4th fight and it was his first MK 9/1988 Jonidan debut 3-4 ... first win in this division was against Matsuda... first lost was against Furuichi 5/1989 Sandanme debut 2-5 ...loses his four first fights in this division... the first lost was against Tochinoyama... first win was against Konumafuji (??? not sure of the shikona) 9/1990 Makushita debut 2-5... first lost in this division was against Nagao... first win in this division was against Musashiryuu 1/1992 Juryo debut 7-8... first win in this division was against Enazakura 5/1993 Makuuchi debut 4-11.. first win in this division was against Kototsubaki Edited January 17, 2007 by Kaiomitsuki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slt 8 Posted January 17, 2007 Maybe Kaio My answer is Kaio too (aka Koga) 5/1988 Jonokuchi debut 3-4 .... his first win - the second day of the Natsu 1988 - was against Kobayashi... Koga wins his first two career fights but the 5th day of this basho he loses his first ever fight and it was against Wakahanada (the futur Wakanohana III)... The 13th day of the Natsu 1988, he loses his 4th fight and it was his first MK 9/1988 Jonidan debut 3-4 ... first win in this division was against Matsuda... first lost was against Furuichi 5/1989 Sandanme debut 2-5 ...loses his four first fights in this division... the first lost was against Tochinoyama... first win was against Konumafuji (??? not sure of the shikona) 9/1990 Makushita debut 2-5... first lost in this division was against Nagao... first win in this division was against Musashiryuu 1/1992 Juryo debut 7-8... first win in this division was against Enazakura 5/1993 Makuuchi debut 4-11.. first win in this division was against Kototsubaki Thanks for all the details ! I guess all we need now is to sit back and wait until he gets MK as his Yokozuna debut... (Laughing...) Quite inspiring, actually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,783 Posted January 17, 2007 I guess all we need now is to sit back and wait until he gets MK as his Yokozuna debut... FWIW, he had kachi-koshi in his Komusubi, Sekiwake and Ozeki debuts. (Laughing...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 17, 2007 Yes, Kaio it is of course. He also is among the record holders for sanyaku ranks before finally achieving ozeki promotion. And of course he has the most yusho as ozeki without becoming yokozuna. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 17, 2007 Yes, Kaio .........And of course he has the most yusho as ozeki without becoming yokozuna. Kaio 5 yusho Raiden 27 yusho If you want to nitpick, actually Raiden has zero yusho, and you should know that. So what do you say now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted January 17, 2007 So what do you say now? I say "huh"? The individual yusho system (kojin yusho seido) was instituted in 1909. Before that no individual yusho were awarded, it was rather a East vs. West team affair. The non-importance (or rather non-existence) of individual yusho can also be seen in the fact that rikishi usually fought a different number of bouts. Anyway, yusho just didn't exist before 1909, so Raiden definitely had zero yusho. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaiguma 0 Posted January 17, 2007 The 'conceptual Yusho' [i.e. not formally recognized ceremonially or in print I take it?] also was not linked directly to Yokozuna promotion, so Doits probably means more precisely that Kaio holds the record for most Yusho without Yokozuna promotion in an era where yusho are awarded and/or definitively determine promotion prospects. Seems like more of a semantic difference than anything else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
