Asashoryu's ketaguri - good or bad?

[Manekineko 200]

There is a poll regarding the ketaguri - two options-OK for him to do it, not OK for him to do it. Good-66% , not good 23%. and a lot of comments there as well, all in Japanese.

The poll-http://dailynews.yahoo.co.jp/fc/sports/sumo/ on the right, middle table-two radio buttons to choose. After you vote, it tales you to the results page and subsequent comments.

I wonder what the results would be if the forum had such a poll.

I wondered too. (I am not worthy...)

edit: related topic: http://www.sumoforum.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10738

Edited December 27, 2006 by Manekineko

[slt 8]

I voted "good" - a kimarite I'd never seen before, a bit of diversity isn't so bad.

Considering the yusho was clinched a perfect 15-0, I think I can safely dismiss all the discussions about whether Asa was "frightened" by dai-Yokozuna Kisenosato...

(I am not worthy...)

[Mark Buckton 1]

legit kimarite - not forward moving though - not worthy of a yokozuna. Had it been while on the back foot, being pushed to the edge........ At tachiai - not what I want to see.

[aderechelsea 107]

i liked it

[Asashosakari 16,699]

Rarely have I been so grateful for the inclusion of a "Britney Spears" option.

[Shimpu 0]

On stream I didn't notice this leg trick - probably most of spectators except these who sit very close didn't notice it too. As for me it isn't offensive move - I think Kise would fall also without this kick. Henka - it doesn't fit to Yokozuna. (I am not worthy...)

EDIT:

Khem... what about this Britney option - do you mean pu*sy or essence of beauty :-O ? I mean rather nay or yay?

Edited December 27, 2006 by Shimpu

[Gusoyama 53]

I really think that putting a ketaguri nomer to the move Asashoryu pulled is weak, as the kick seemed to be after the fact. But I think that as long as its not a common occurrence, ketaguri, or even henka is fine. And like someone else said, you can't expect all Yokozuna to charge forward at every tachai-ai. If that was the case, Akebono would have been the greatest Yokozuna ever.

[Jonosuke 28]

For those who still are not sure what ketaguri is, here's a link to the Kyokai's page

[Ryukaze 0]

Rarely have I been so grateful for the inclusion of a "Britney Spears" option.

Agreed bro I mean c'mon geeze! Frankly I just don't see how you cannot vote "Britney Spears" on this one! lol .......

[Jakusotsu 4,841]

Perhaps surprisingly, results seem to be following the Japanese version.

Even more surprising, there are comparatively less people here bothered by the move. Conclusion: Vocality < Majority

[Mark Buckton 1]

you know, given a great deal of thought, whilst this poll is about ketaguri being OK and above board or underhand and sneaky, perhaps more thought should be given to the possibility that what we saw wasn't ketaguri in the first place.

Take a moment, put to the back of your mind the call by the stadium announcer (gyoji) in Kyushu and read as much as you can on ketaguri - the NSK page linked via SF is a good start but any technique minded site / book will help - and doubts may appear.

I know I have contributed to this thread already (and am in the minority) but the more I look at that bout the less the ketaguri call comes across as correct.

Actually, the ketaguri came up again in the news in Japan around Christmas - not as news - more as a look back at the year IIRC but there was, if I am not completely senile, an excellent accompanying photograph showing Asa kicking towards (no actual contact in the photo) the trailing leg of the komusubi.

This alone means it is not ketaguri according to the NSK's explanation. Not the lack of contact in the image (as that could have happened a split second later) - the rear leg aspect.

They (NSK and others having published on kimarite) indicate sweeping or kicking of the lead leg to be the move - ie. he (Asashoryu in this case) would have had to have been still in a relatively face-on, frontal position to go after the lead leg.

For Asa to have been in a position to kick the trailing leg of Kisenosato he was so far around the side, out of the way of the charging 20-year-old that he then fails to be in the position to take the charge which meant that Kisenosato was going down anyway - due to the pressure applied on the upper arm / shoulder and that is normally termed 'henka' in this SF neck of the woods..................................

Anyway, the Japanese poll itself quoted elsewhere by Moti, no disrespect to the Golen One, seems a tad suspicious now given that 65% say it is OK and 36% say no - even I can see that as exceeding the 100% we should be limited to.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Mark Buckton

[Doitsuyama 1,150]

seems a tad suspicious now given that 65% say it is OK and 36% say no - even I can see that as exceeding the 100% we should be limited to.

You always are suspicious of numbers, no matter the sum... this one could just be a totally harmless rounding effect, with the yes votes being 64.5000% and the no votes being 35.5000%.

[Kaikitsune Makoto 189]

I am not sure how "lead leg" translates fully into Finnish as English is a tough cookie. Still. ketaguri is virtually impossible to do without targeting the lead leg. The question is whether lead leg refers to the leg that is just initiating a forward movement ie. "leading the body's way" and not the actual position of the legs. Kisenosato was henkaed yes and Kise's left leg was in front but when Shoryu kicked the trailing leg, that trailing leg was IMO, the actual "lead leg" because it was the leg assuming the role of taking Kise's body back to safety and balanced state. But like I said, the "lead leg" can be translated into Finnish in both ways, meaning either the leg that is more in front that the other or the leg that is "in the process of balancing the posture of the rikishi".

Shoryu has never ever avoided a challenge from a younger or older rikishi who beat him straight on the previous time. He is way too arrogant not to try to punish and show who is the boss in very violent way. The fact that he didn't try to manhandle Kise in that bout simply means he wasn't fully confident facing Kise, fearing he might lose again. He even said that after the bout that he was worried about that. Well, good tactics by Shoryu, Kise surely wasn't expecting that but it does leave an aftertaste of "oh you didn't go for your retaliation process with full steam this time..I wonder why". Like stated before, Shoryu surely isn't afraid of Kise but he surely wasn't sure of beating him either. Nothing that bad about ketaguri as such but as the Irish Explorer (IE, without the bugs) said, the timing was a bit strange to say the least. Timing of the ketaguri itself was immaculate though.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Kaikitsune Makoto

[Naganoyama 5,284]

I liked it.

No rikishi should make assumptions about what his opponent will or won't do, even if he is the yokozuna. (Perhaps I should have said 'especially if he is the yokozuna')

[Mark Buckton 1]

I am not sure how "lead leg" translates fully into Finnish as English is a tough cookie.

The question is whether lead leg refers to the leg that is just initiating a forward movement ie. "leading the body's way"

I belive so - and thereby taking the weight (that would come crashing down were it kicked away). In the case of Kise - I think he was already on his way to the dohyo when Asa kicked out at the rear leg and made it look more like a slip than a fall.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Mark Buckton

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

For the ashiwaza aficionado

 

[Churaumi 680]

What's next? A yokozuna pulling a henka? They'll be doing dameoshi next. I swear....

[RabidJohn 1,210]

I added a necro-vote for Britney Spears...

[Katooshu 2,338]

Legit move, but not really impressive as a ketaguri--looked to me like Kise was going down from the henka and Asa's foot came in after the matter.

[Pandaazuma 1,259]

Greatest rikishi ever. He had it all. Sadly that 'all' led to his own destruction too.