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Jonosuke

YDC Post Basho Meeting

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After seeing Asashoryu wins yet antoher zen-sho yusho and leading all the others by winning a total of 67 bouts this year, we should have known that the Yokozuna Deliberation Committee members would have to find something to "advise" the yokozuna. After all that is their job and they did.

Today at their regular post-basho meeting, all members have expressed their dismay and objection to the yokozuna's use of "ketaguri" on Day 8 against Kisenosato, saying it "lacked grace" and a move the yokozuna should never have used.

"Obviously we cannot alter the result now but we certainly would have preferred to see him taking his opponent with more ease," Yoshio Ishibashi, the chairman of YDC told reporters.

Screenwriter, Makiko Uchidate, firebrand member of the committee were more adamant by pointing out the kimarite name , "ketaguri" itself sounds disgraceful.

"The yokozuna apparently said later it was to pay back for his loss the last basho. I must say a comment like this is such undeserving of yokozuna."

Chairman Ishibashi tried somewhat to soften her opinion and said, "I believe he meant to say he would not allow himself losing consecutively. I am sure the yokozuna himself realized the improper behaviour."

She also even went further by commenting that the way Asashoryu hits his mawashi during his shikiri just before the tachiai degrades the dignity of yokozuna.

Kitanoumi oyakata, chairman of the Kyokai, defended Asashoryu by saying, "it's not something he could change easily." With a laughter, he added, "Without it, you know it will be the end of Asashoryu."

The committee members additionally expressed their regret of not seeing Hakuho this basho and added they hope to see him come back fully recovered in the Hatsu basho.

Edited by Jonosuke

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She also even went further by commenting that the way Asashoryu hits his mawashi during his shikiri just before the tachiai degrades the dignity of yokozuna.

ok .. this is ridiculous ... (A yokozuna...)

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She also even went further by commenting that the way Asashoryu hits his mawashi during his shikiri just before the tachiai degrades the dignity of yokozuna.
ok .. this is ridiculous ... (Annoyed...)

...and still she's right - sort of. Don't we all carry the image of Yokozuna the like of Futabayama and Takanohana in our hearts? The embodiment of calm dignity yet unquestionable strength? While Asashoryu is a supreme conveyor of the latter, he's not really convincing as a "wooden rooster".

Don't get me wrong, I adore his power, but he's certainly not a "traditional" yokozuna, yet tradition has to be valued highly in Ozumo.

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Screenwriter, Makiko Uchidate, firebrand member of the committee were more adamant by pointing out the kimarite name , "ketaguri" itself sounds disgraceful.

My oh my. I'm almost forced to start to like the lady. Just for her adamance. (I am not worthy...) Even if the arguments she uses are... errr, should I say... badly ladylike? :-S

Or can some Japanese (-speaking) friend here perhaps explain, what's so disgaceful in the word "ketaguri", that a dignified rikishi should avoid whole kimarite just because of how it sounds? (Annoyed...)

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:-S Umm, so my predictions of Asashoryu being twice upset didn't come true, and of course my rantings in the original ketaguri thread were over the top. I must admit I was peppering it heavily with what I wanted to see and not necessarily with what is realistic. After all, he did achieve yet another zensho and is now only 13? yusho away from matching Taiho's yusho record. So if someone doesn't challenge him very seriously in the next 2.5 years he will likely break that record. Let me first come right out and say that I wouldn't like to see that happen, and below are some reasons why. I think the YDC realizes this as well and this is why they are pining for Hakuho :'-( . The question is, is he or anyone else actually ready to bring it on?

She also even went further by commenting that the way Asashoryu hits his mawashi during his shikiri just before the tachiai degrades the dignity of yokozuna.

ok .. this is ridiculous ... (Annoyed...)

Yes, but Kitanoumi's response is pretty darned funny. At least he knows where to draw the line . . .

She also even went further by commenting that the way Asashoryu hits his mawashi during his shikiri just before the tachiai degrades the dignity of yokozuna.
ok .. this is ridiculous ... (Annoyed...)

...and still she's right - sort of. Don't we all carry the image of Yokozuna the like of Futabayama and Takanohana in our hearts? The embodiment of calm dignity yet unquestionable strength? While Asashoryu is a supreme conveyor of the latter, he's not really convincing as a "wooden rooster".

I also agree with the sentiment, but I don't think the mawashi slap is quite the best evidence! Even so Chiyonofuji, who was extremely intense and agressive, was always very calm in setting into the tachi-ai. It's all about breathing right? And I do think that Chiyonofuji in his prime would have wiped this Kyushu's zensho-shoryu all over the clay floor like a sweaty rag. [now watch as Doitsuyama cites strength ratings as proof that Asashoryu is on a par with Chiyonofuji :-) . . . if so how can I possibly argue against hard numbers?]

Screenwriter, Makiko Uchidate, firebrand member of the committee were more adamant by pointing out the kimarite name , "ketaguri" itself sounds disgraceful.

My oh my. I'm almost forced to start to like the lady. Just for her adamance. (I am not worthy...) Even if the arguments she uses are... errr, should I say... badly ladylike? :-S

Or can some Japanese (-speaking) friend here perhaps explain, what's so disgaceful in the word "ketaguri", that a dignified rikishi should avoid whole kimarite just because of how it sounds? (Annoyed...)

I'm sure we can come up with phrases in English which engender similar disgrace, regardless of gender :-D

Ketaguri probably sounds very close to "pulling trip." A 'trip' would be disgraceful in most sports, but not necessarily so in sumo or other martial arts. It's quite differnet though in the context of a tachi-ai. And then there's 'pulling' which is not usually considered a good exhibit of Yokozuna sumo. Examples of disgraceful terms in English might be: cheap shot, sneak attack, rabbit punch (not unlike sokubiotoshi), hitting below the belt, dodgy, monkey kung-fu, dirty pool, gamesmanship. Most of these are not techniques per se and some are outright illegal, but I think it's getting close to what you're after.

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I was under the impression that Asashoryu greatly admired Chiyonofuji, and was in fact emulating his idol with the shikiri mawashi slap...

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I'm sure we can come up with phrases in English which engender similar disgrace, regardless of gender (Annoyed...)

Ketaguri probably sounds very close to "pulling trip." A 'trip' would be disgraceful in most sports, but not necessarily so in sumo or other martial arts. It's quite differnet though in the context of a tachi-ai. And then there's 'pulling' which is not usually considered a good exhibit of Yokozuna sumo. Examples of disgraceful terms in English might be: cheap shot, sneak attack, rabbit punch (not unlike sokubiotoshi), hitting below the belt, dodgy, monkey kung-fu, dirty pool, gamesmanship. Most of these are not techniques per se and some are outright illegal, but I think it's getting close to what you're after.

Apart from all this, Ketaguri looks like a difficult technique to perform correctly. Timing is critical, and if you make a tiny mistake you probably lose the bout.

So I don't think it is disgraceful for him to do it once, just to show that he can.

I cannot image he was afraid of Kisenosato. If anything, I think he used this technique to show that he felt absolutely confident.

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Maybe Asa should return to his old method of paying back a loss - show up at the relevant rikishi's heya for a surprise visit and honour him with an extra tsuri-based keiko session?

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Maybe Asa should return to his old method of paying back a loss - show up at the relevant rikishi's heya for a surprise visit and honour him with an extra tsuri-based keiko session?

maybe a yokozuna should be above "payback"

I think this is part of his magic.

There are few rikishi who are not afraid of him, from what I read on this forum.

The fact that he instills fear gives him an extra advantage.

If an opponent thinks he is going to lose, the battle is half-won already.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Wise words of Granny: "I never got to where I am today by assuming I'd lose"

It could very well be that he uses these payback sessions for strategical purposes, rather than for (only) getting revenge.

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Ketaguri....

When listening to the live comments of the japanese commentator (a link has been posted in this forum), I got the impression that they were really impressed by this technique. It is difficult, it is surprising, it is effective. And for me personally, it demonstrates the technical arsenal and the ability of the yokozuna.

And I cannot see why it should be considered "disgraceful"....

I started admiring sumo mainly because of Asashoryu - his combination of power and technical ability is really incredible. And I definatelly prefer him and his once-in-few-years ketaguri, than an Yokozuna, wining only by yorikiri.

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It seems to me they are really scraping the barrel here for something to criticise.

The name of the kimarite is disgraceful? What???

Shame on the Kyokai then for having it on the list.

... The YDC are a bunch of idiots.

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Ketaguri....

When listening to the live comments of the japanese commentator (a link has been posted in this forum), I got the impression that they were really impressed by this technique. It is difficult, it is surprising, it is effective. And for me personally, it demonstrates the technical arsenal and the ability of the yokozuna.

And I cannot see why it should be considered "disgraceful"....

The technique itself wasn't the main problem, it was the setup. Yokozuna are expected to move forward and take the initiative at all times. That being said, the comments coming out of the YDC are pretty dumb, even for their level.

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Asashoryu was beaten in pure power sumo in Aki basho by Kisenosato so you would have thought he wanted to go all out to prove a 20 year old rising star won't beat him with power twice. Actually I was very surprised he didn't go head on with Kise but did this "techical henka". Even his comments after the bout reflected that he just needed to win that bout in order not to get embarrassed by losing twice in a row to Kise. I am sure he isn't afraid of Kisenosato but I am sure Kisenosato isn't afraid of the yokozuna either. In this sense I understand the critique by YDC or CIA or whatever. To say Asashoryu was playing around with a rikishi who so utterly beat him in Aki basho is simply stupid. Asashoryu is the best rikishi in sumo but he surely can't take lightly young upcoming stars like Hakuho, Kisenosato, Baruto and soon..Tochiouzan, etc. as they can certainly beat him if they get their own sumo in well. It is a bit different with old and injured rikishi whose mobility simply isn't enough in bouts against Shoryu. It is quite a different case to go against slowed down KaioU, one-legged Azuma or round wreck Taikai than a young strong rikishi with good mobility. Ketaguri is a nice technique too but it isn't power sumo and Shoryu was beaten in power sumo in Aki and yet he didn't challenge Kise again in that. Oh well, we will see many bouts between them and probably less ketaguri in the future. 2007 comes, new rikishi come, old rikishi stay or go and sumou is fun. Hopefully many new rikishi have good mobility so speed is increased at high ranks. Juha Ahokas did ketaguri in amateur sumo against former Hamanishiki.

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I think you are being very selective in your definition of a "traditional" yokozuna. Takanohana and Futabaya were bigger physically. Asashoryu like Chiyonofuji lacks the size so he makes up for it in aggression, speed and technique. There have been others too like him.

Interesting thread but this one hit me as odd given sizes:

Given that this year's directory has the yokozuna as 184cm and 145kg, Futabayama was 6 cm shorter than Asashoryu at 179cm and about 17kg lighter at 128kg

Chiyonofuji was a tad shorter / almost the same height at 183 cm and 18kg lighter at 127 kg but Takanohana I must pass on as the older books are at work!

I would (purely) guess that if anything, Taka has 2 / 3 cm on Asa and was within 8-10kg of the Mongolian at his (Taka's) peak.

Edited by Mark Buckton

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There is a poll regarding the ketaguri - two options-OK for him to do it, not OK for him to do it. Good-66% , not good 23%. and a lot of comments there as well, all in Japanese.

The poll-http://dailynews.yahoo.co.jp/fc/sports/sumo/ on the right, middle table-two radio buttons to choose. After you vote, it takes you to the results page and subsequent comments.

I wonder what the results would be if the forum had such a poll.

Edited by Kintamayama

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The technique itself wasn't the main problem, it was the setup. Yokozuna are expected to move forward and take the initiative at all times. That being said, the comments coming out of the YDC are pretty dumb, even for their level.

Odd, (Clapping wildly...) as I don't recall them criticising Takanohana on this score - Taka seldom bothered to even move forward at tachiai in his later years. I remember hearing in that reign that a Yokozuna was supposed to take his opponent's best and then defeat him anyway, which is more what Taka did.

It seems silly to ask all Yokozuna to all follow the same mold - it not only requires some to completely abandon that which made them champion, but also makes life quite boring. While I have a lot of time for Tousanoumi, I don't want to see 3 1/2 dozen of him in Makunouchi...

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I wonder what the results would be if the forum had such a poll.

Poll: here.

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Ketaguri....

When listening to the live comments of the japanese commentator (a link has been posted in this forum), I got the impression that they were really impressed by this technique.

They weren't impressed, they were shocked that the yokozuna had pulled a ketaguri.

Odd, confusion.gif as I don't recall them criticising Takanohana on this score - Taka seldom bothered to even move forward at tachiai in his later years. I remember hearing in that reign that a Yokozuna was supposed to take his opponent's best and then defeat him anyway, which is more what Taka did.

The key is to take the opponent's best. Taka may not have had a powerful forward tachiai, but he didn't move to the side; he took his opponent's charge full on.

Put simply, henka and ketaguri (henka with a kick!) are tricksy. Yokozuna are not supposed to be tricksy.

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The key is to take the opponent's best. Taka may not have had a powerful forward tachiai, but he didn't move to the side; he took his opponent's charge full on.

I agree with you. I consider the yokozuna sumo to be that, will take all comers in and take on their best move and still prevail. Their opponent might sprint out quicker or come out with more power but regardless of how they come out of tachiai, the yokuzuna will not budge nor do a matta. He will take his opponnet fair and square and make himself into more advantageous position and eventually overwhelm the opponent. To me that is the yokozuna sumo.

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Booooorrrrrriiiinnnngg. ;-)

this whole YDC vs. Asashoryu is irrelevant. Do they have anything on him? Can they fine him for being "un-Yokozuna-like" ? They mean nothing. All Makiko Uchidate is, is a negative influence on the sumo of this generation. Pining away for the days of the "Real Yokozuna", is pathetic, as is the constant haranguing of the current yokozuna. There's no such thing as a "real" anything. there is only what there is.

What is disgraceful to sumo is to have people who are supposedly looking out for the historical best interest of the sport, resorting to such pettiness. Sumo is about great things. It is about the greatest things of humanity. You can't always be "against" something. You have to be "for" something. You know?

I don't even like Asashoryu. He doesn't do it for me. but you know what? HE IS THE YOKOZUNA!!! And he IS great.

Uchidate misses the point entirely. Greatness by definition is different. The thing that makes Asashoryu great, is the fact that he's made of different stuff than the others. Just the same as ALL other Yokozuna.

She is looking for some way to sound relevant and important, and knowledgeable. But instead, she looks like an academic who has read everything about a certain subject, and still knows nothing about it. She will never know what it is to be a yokozuna, and she will never know how great a thing it really is, because she is busy looking for an imaginary "ideal" that never existed, and never will.

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It's too late to pull the reins when the chasm is only three paces away. A steed without harness would never do a dohyo-iri.

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