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Zentoryu

Kyokai investigates Injury problems

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Maybe it's just me, but I feel pretty much the whole post is pretty provoking.

Maybe it was a bit provoking, you're right but just read again his post just before, it was a bit provoking too like all the posts he made before during this thread which were all especially directed to me to answer me "point by point" and for one time, I'm reacting a bit !

:-)

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Without exact weights I can mention Hokutoarashi, Yanagi and Kainowaka at least.

Thanks a lot. I will support them !  :-)

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It's for a big part, a question of weight. Akebono and  Musashimaru both reached 240 kilos meanwhile Konishiki reached 285 kilos. You know other Hawaiians or Japanese who reached that weight and who failed to reach the Makuuchi ?

Gimme one !  (Having a cigarette...)

Don't smoke, it's bad for your health..

Well, Susanoumi, for one. He is actually 210 today, but was 233 in the past when he was a regular Juuryou fixture. Juuryou 2 was his highest rank, and he is now in Sandanme, and will be back up in Makushita in March.and there's retired Toyonoumi who was around 220. He was in makuuchi for a very short while, and spent most of his career in Juuryou.I actually don't remember many more of these mammoths lately, other than Towanoyama, who never actually fought in Makuuchi (one fusenpai)

I don't know this for a fact, but I doubt there were THAT many rikishi in all of Sumo history that were well over 200...

And let's all take it easy..

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Thanks, Kintamayama-zeki !

I forgot that good old Susa !  :-)

We need all you here guys! This is heated conversation now with opposite views on many issues but please let the fight be between issues and not persons!

Well, the problem in this forum ... is certainly me, and that's not the first time ... I'm the black sheep  (Baaa...) of sumoforum.net ! Bee

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So the first decision to leave was the best to everybody (including me) and THAT TIME, I LEAVE definitively !

Before you go could you answer these questions please:

1. Do you enjoy writing about sumo?

2. Do you enjoy reading others' posts on this forum (when it is not just arguing your standpoints)?

3. Are you planning to continue posting on some other forum then?

4. Are you punishing all the readers who enjoy your countless of discussion openings, passionate writing about something that we all like very much by leaving because you THINK you are considered a problem????

When people disagree with you, THAT CREATES discussion! Many viewpoints come up which would otherwise stay hidden. That is one of the main attractions of any forum. Sometimes your posts are provocative because of your strong views on matters but people can deal with that and if there would be a poll "Should Hoshifransu quit?" 90-100% would say NO!!!

You disregard now the multiple posts you have written about live sumo, all those links to various games and sumosites, polls etc. which you have been a major contributor to and only refer to the "polemics" you may have caused.

Be yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the words of a very active French forum member: "Be yourself, don't change anything!!"

And don't go if you answered "yes" to any of the questions 1-3 or "no" to the 4th one!

Of course if you don't like this forum anymore, then of course requests to ask you to stay are irrelevant...

Merci.

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Couldn't agree more with Kaikitsune!

What's wrong with having an opinion different than everybody else's?  I, for one, often times make a conscious effort to do that - and to you, it comes naturally! :D

Why not be that colorful bird (I think more appropriate term for you than black sheep)?  We all saw what happened to this forum when you left (and no offense to Rijicho and the other members, but, short of saying that it was "dead" around here, there was next to nothing going on, cause Mr. Forum wasn't around to start all sorts of interesting (and yes, sometimes controversial) topics! ;)

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

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I should probably leave this alone, but I feel the need to answer.

BTW, I think THAT'S the real problem in Sumo, a real solution to avoid all these kyujo could be doctors disallowing the wrestlers to fight back if they're still very injured !

No kidding. I've been saying that for three years! You see Hoshifransu, we CAN agree on something!

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I should have left like I decided in december 2002 !

As Yubiquitoyama-zeki said :

You have a different opinion than most of us here in this issue

In this issue, and in many other ones, unfortunately ... I don't know why ... I can't participate to a forum when each time, I explain a point of view, and I don't know why but I have everybody Vs. me almost each time ! It's too difficult in these conditions to participate !

And not only now, but in the future, this will repeat itself invariably ...

So the first decision to leave was the best to everybody (including me) and THAT TIME, I LEAVE definitively !

I'm sorry to Zentoryu-zeki if I was arrogant with you !

WHY???

I really don't see how you are thinking right now, because from my point of view I can't see why you would leave, or for that matter why you'd want to leave. You have different opinions than most of us on plenty of issues. So what? This is a discussion forum. The point is that everybody's opinion is of course ok, and if those opinions aren't vented, there is no discussion. But that does also not mean that one can say anything without getting a response.

I really think you have spent much too little time on forums to really realize what's going on there. This forum has almost no bad mouthing at all. Only the issues are discussed. This is unique for a forum.

I don't plan to feel guilty if you leave, because I haven't done anything to give you a reason to leave. I said you had gone a bit too far in one post, which I think you did. So what? I have gone too far or been wrong plenty of times on the mailing list, and been told so. So what? We all have a passion for sumo, and while our views differ, that's the reason we are all here.

You and I are very much alike. We can't shut up when we think someone says something that we don't agree with. And we are much too passionate about our opinions, to not sometimes go too far. So what? It's hardly anything wrong with that. This IS a discussion forum, and if no one discussed, it would be pointless. For god sake, stay, but don't make me beg, because I don't think I should have to, since you have no reason to leave in the first place.

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So, Hoshifransu quit again? Sigh. Ah well, back to secret behind rapid increase of injuries in sumo. This just occured to me: could it be the lack of yaocho (fixed bouts)? Again, I have no statistics to back me up, but I have a feeling that there is less and less of that "I have my kk, I'll let you have yours" behaviour among rikishi who are not in the yusho race in the last days of the basho... Thus rikishi have to fight more seriously to get that precious kk, and there are certainly more risks of injury... *There* is an ancient sumo tradition that was abandoned! :p

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Wow, some heated debate on this issue.  People please don't take anything personally, it's just intellectual discussions.  Having different views is what makes forums like this interesting  :-9   If we all agree on everything there wouldn't be too many posts to read...

The Sumo Association could conduct urine tests during the twice-a-year medical checkups for all wrestlers, said the Yomiuri, the nation's largest daily, citing unidentified sources.

That would be not effective at all.  From what I've read, it only takes a couple of days to at most a couple of weeks of non-usage to make the signs disappear from your urine.  The rikishi know about these 2/year tests well in advance, so they would just stop using.  These tests should be combined with random, unannounced tests and tests every basho.

As for the weight discussion: why are we focusing only on the extremes of Konishiki, Akebono, and the other "super heavyweights"?  It's not like being 200kg magically makes you different as far as injuries.  It's being too heavy for your body.  For some people, 150kg is too heavy and will lead to injuries.  Others have big bones and can carry 200kg OK maybe.

The two trends go hand in hand: rapid increase in average weight over the past 10 years, rapid increase in injuries and absences over the last 10 years.  We probably have enough data to do a proper statistical correlation analysis and prove the two are related...

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As for the weight discussion: why are we focusing only on the extremes of Konishiki, Akebono, and the other "super heavyweights"?  It's not like being 200kg magically makes you different as far as injuries.  It's being too heavy for your body.  For some people, 150kg is too heavy and will lead to injuries.  Others have big bones and can carry 200kg OK maybe.

Well this was kind of the point I was rather unsuccessfully trying to make. Konishiki and Akebono were examples of rikishi who got too big for their own bodies to handle and ended up with injuries that forced their retirements as a result.

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I doubt very strongly the data is statistically significant. Yes, there is an increase in weight (not too much over ten years) and there is an increase in injuries. But I doubt so strongly it is statistically significant that I am not even willing to conduct a test with that... it is just too few data here.

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Sorry for digging up this old thread, but I'm actually wondering why in ozumo they treat kyujo just the same as if you would score a 0-15 or 0-7. I think it's okay to make injured rikishi drop on the banzuke, for 2 reasons :

- if they would let them keep their ranking, each minor injury might lead to skipping a basho, too many would not risk

- when coming back from a longer injury, it's not bad that you can do that a few steps lower

But I believe it's too hard for a sanyaku rikishi for instance that after almost a year of abscense, he finds himself in Jonokuchi again.

Like Tochinoshin dropping from Makuuchi to low Makushita after half a year.

I think it would be okay to treat kyujo as a 2-5 or 5-10 record for banzuke making purposes, no ?

They would still make a nasty drop, but at least a reasonable one to recover from.

Just my 2 cents.

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