themistyseas

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Posts posted by themistyseas


  1. On 05/08/2021 at 10:22, Eikokurai said:

    Or with a little rule bending, how the Oasis classic 'Some Meisei'?

     

    What an absolute classic! I'm shocked however that you didn't post the full lyrics which really pay tribute to a host of up and coming rikishi (and even reference some Meisei are on their way out!). Sing along!

    Some Meisei that sunshine follows thunder
    Go and tell it to the man who Kanno shines
    Some Meisei that we should Nobehara
    All our thoughts today 'cause they hold sway Osanai
    Some Meisei we will find Tokisakae
    And some Meisei we will find Sakigake (yeah yeah yeah yeah)
    'Cause I've been standing at the station
    In need of education for Abe
    He made no preparation
    For Abi’s reputation once again
    The dohyo’s full of Nishikis
    She's got Nishikifuji on the brain
    It was overflowing gently
    But it's all Asakoki my friend
    Some Meisei they don't believe Byakuen
    Go and tell it to Shonanzakura in hell
    Some Meisei you get what you've been given
    If Ryuden gets yours he won't get mine as well
    Some Meisei we will find Asagyokusei
    And some Meisei we will find Asabenkei (yeah yeah yeah yeah)
    'Cause I've been standing at the station
    In need of education for Yamane
    He made no preparation
    For Abi’s reputation once again
    The dohyo’s full of Nishikis
    She's got Nishikimaru on the brain
    And Roga’s been itchin'
    Ichinojo's in the kitchen once again
    Some Meisei (some Meisei)
    Some Meisei (some Meisei)
    Ura what some Meisei (Ura what some Meisei)
    Ura what some Meisei (Ura what some Meisei)
    Ura what some Meisei (Ura what some Meisei)
    Ura what some Meisei (Ura what some Meisei)
    ...

    • Like 2

  2. On 29/09/2021 at 23:11, Yubinhaad said:

    Speaking of brothers, I had forgotten until now that Sadanoryu is the younger brother of Dekiyama-oyakata (former Maegashira Sadanofuji).

    He was also a bit of a fun watch for trainspotters given that he made his debut as Obamaumi for Hatsu 2009, rather like another Obama who also debuted in his role in January 2009. However, Sadanoryu's Obama was geographically inspired. Had he changed his shikona in 2017 (rather than 2019) when the other Obama departed, perhaps that would have really raised eyebrows!


  3. 46 minutes ago, Rocks said:

    It's going to be weird seeing Hakuho guarding a door at the Kokugikan. I wish him luck and hope everything goes smoothly for him. Great Champion.

    The task they give him will be very curious. It seems they don't put the most popular folks in areas of public interaction, for example Kisenosato caused a huge stir virtually every time I saw him go into Kokugikan (or any of the other spots) after his intai, to go to his commentary duties. Same could be said of Takanohana even up to his retirement - he always had a huge press scrum chasing after him. Apart from Kakuryu, Musashimaru is the only other "recent" (ie not in his final few years) Yokozuna in the Kyokai and I've never once seen him performing a task in any of the venues in the past several years.

    You'd think they'd give Hakuho a similar role to Kisenosato, except they probably don't want him near a microphone.

    I don't know what they're going to do with him (and I suspect they might not either). One might think they would give him a menial task to prove a point, but there are issues with that. You can't really put him at the merch booth with Tenkaiho and Satoyama, and he's not going to be a ticket taker like his senpai usually is, both for reasons of crowd control. The doorman/hanamichi patrol job is a very publicly accessible role in Fukuoka and Osaka, and those are two of the next three basho. 

    Someone else might know this, but it seems like they very rarely make someone a shimpan early in their oyakata career. I guess they could throw him on the Jungyo team as they plan for its eventual return, that one seemed like a bit of a poisoned chalice at the best of times. I just have a feeling, especially with some of the noises we're hearing, that he won't be very visible.


  4. 11 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    Considering what @themistyseas said a bit ago about fans, I wonder if there are fans and there are fans. It seems that while the general public's only knowledge of sumo is Hakuho, and they have a favourable view of him, what passes for the intelligentsia amongst the sumo fans seem to have a pretty strong view against him - that includes the YDC and now, apparently, this odd external committee member.

    I think that's more or less right. I was obviously being very general in my assessment, but I think with regards to the general public that holds. Now when you talk about the general public of sumo fans, especially elderly folks in the general public who go to Kokugikan, then I think you start to get interesting opinions and of course very interesting loyalties in terms of the rikishi who are supported. A lot of that comes down as we know to people's connections to various schools or sponsors or rikishi connections to various regions that someone might be from. Bringing that back to Hakuho, obviously he gets a wide swath of support for his cultural activities even if people don't always like the sumo, or still celebrate a kinboshi against him because it's such a special and rare event and a huge achievement you can say you were there for. Elderly fans who attend basho tend to be a lot longer in the memory than the hysterical crowd on sumo twitter (many of whom are new fans within the last few years anyway, not that there's anything wrong with that).

    Small sample size, but when I talk to women in their 50s and 60s in the stands at a basho, I'm here to tell you that they really love Myogiryu. He's been around long enough that fans have been following him for years and uh... this demographic seems to find him especially handsome. Before anyone accuses me of chatting up the elderly Japanese female population, I'd clarify that I'd love to talk to anyone but normally - especially early in the day before Juryo - the elderly women at Kokugikan are more interested to have a conversation and most of the elderly men are nose deep in their scorecards and statistical analysis or amateur photography. I'm always really interested in talking to fans, mostly to learn more, also because the fan experience is part of what I do for a living. But there's a lot to be gained there about the sumo experience that we don't always get from the newspapers, and I think that may be reflected in the wide variety of opinions about Hakuho.

    • Like 5
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  5. 6 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    Ichinojo still has a few good years in front of him. He won't be the first or last rikishi to acquire Japanese citizenship and still stick around wrestling for a while - Kaisei and Kyokutenho are the obvious examples. So by the time he's ready to retire Minato oyakata may well be much nearer to 65 than not.

    I would also imagine Kakuryu's experience will also a cautionary tale for others in the future, that you'll want to have your paperwork in order when the body is no longer holding up.

    • Like 1

  6. 1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:
    10 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

    Isn't there a rule that precludes a new man from doing a branchout for a set amount of time (a year?)

    Exactly

    Surely a branch-out was never really on the cards here anyway? I don't think it would have made sense for him to abscond with half (or more) of the heya when he can just carry on doing what he's been doing in terms of recruitment and development, given that Miyagino's on a very limited clock as it is anyhow. He'll end up getting control of his heya in less time than a branch-out would take.

    I'm sure the plan was always for him to take over the existing heya next August regardless of his knee condition. Can't imagine the real estate venture would have much impact on that on way or the other, but perhaps he can acquire the land and get the whole thing done in time for the grand rebrand - whatever that brand will be.

    • Like 2

  7. 35 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

    So how did everyone get wind of Hakuho having submitted his papers, with Shibatayama put in the position of having to confirm it rather than announce it? Did Hakuho deliberately leak it in advance? And if so, to what end?

    30 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

    I suspect that the NSK are absolutely fizzing furious about the way the news was leaked. They may be looking for a way to deliver a final snub to the great one.

    Just my imagination, but we all know Hakuho doesn't forget. Most folks tend to agree that Shibatayama's statements to the press about Hakuho's Olympic appearance were way over the top (even if not technically all wrong) and even if there was a discussion to be had about how it came to be, it certainly didn't appear that he had any of those answers. Even though it's Shibatayama's job as PR man to answer the press questions and he had no choice but to do so, he certainly could have handled it a lot better and managed not to lose face (especially as PR man for an organisation that continues to have to suspend rikishi for lying about running out to the kyabakura). A lot of Shibatayama's outburst hinged on the fact that Hakuho shouldn't be doing this that or the other in his capacity as top man on the banzuke. Now, we know Hakuho didn't even want to be on the banzuke. I'm no rikishi but if I were in Hakuho's shoes, and it wasn't clear that they were ready to handle this, I wouldn't be in the mood to make Shibatayama's life easy.

    More plausibly though, the other benefit to leaking it is that if you're concerned about the media narrative, you can allow that story to circulate with less influence from the various official sources. I find the comments from Yano, for example, that were shared here to be pretty detestable. And given that there's actually been quite a bit of global pickup on this, if he has leaked it then it shows that he's not willing to be strongarmed by the association to wait for them if that's been his intention since before the Olympics and he's given them multiple months' notice to prepare. And it also means that global media isn't going to be picking up comments that come later from people like Yano. But maybe I'm giving him too much credit for media strategy.

    That's all a bit of gossipy conjecture based on nothing though... I do also tend to agree with @WAKATAKE's assessment that the financial side of this probably will take some time for them to work out. And we know from other recent intai that it sometimes takes them months to shuffle kabu around, sort out paperwork, etc. Even if they've decided not to grant ichidai-toshiyori, now they're going to have to announce why, there will have had to have been discussions about that and if they accept the policy recommendation to remove or if they simply aren't giving to him. Maybe those already happened...!

    As @Kintamayama says... it's "game of fat thrones" ;)

    • Like 2

  8. 26 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

    Wahey. Now that's what I'm talking about. That's a pretty swanky area of Tokyo too, barely 5 minutes walk out of Tokyo-eki itself. Land can't be cheap there, though, so I wonder what the motivation for building there is.

    One must wonder if it's to do a Kisenosato, but on a bigger (commercial) scale and with more resources. Build a modern environment but in an area where it's accessible to fans, and run a gift shop in an area where people with money spend money. We would (and will) go to Ibaraki to see Kisenosato's place, but casuals aren't going there. Meanwhile Hakuho's already got Chanko Ho in Ginza, so he's no stranger to putting properties where people with money actually are.

    Given his track record of wanting to make generational impacts, he already seems to have figured out recruiting, and has been dedicated to youth and community initiatives, so I would posit that his exposure to fans at Miyagino beya (which seems to have been one of the more accessible stables for global fans) will probably have clued him in that he can steal a march on some of the dinosaurs of the previous era - whose idea of fansa is at most Jungyo - when it comes to cultivating fan relationships.

    I would also imagine, thinking as a fantasy shisho, if you have to live where you work and so does your spouse, and you're well heeled, you'd want to build something spectacular in a spectacular part of town with good access both to Ryogoku and the shinkansen both for basho and for recruiting trips (especially with that stable's links to further flung parts of Japan and beyond).

    • Like 6

  9. 4 minutes ago, specialweek 2 said:

    The mistyseas what do you base this statement on?

    * I know this forum is a hotbed of superfanz™ - but it's fair to say that Hakuho or not, global sumo interest is down significantly over the past 18-24 months. And Hakuho's ongoing absences have contributed to that as well, which is a little worrying in and of itself (unless you're someone trying to get sumo tickets in which case it's probably great).

    Being an admin of another sumo site which experienced a fast growth to very high volumes of traffic over the past several years, traffic is always higher in tournaments where Hakuho participated and dropped when he was kyujo. Additionally, the months early in the pandemic when the Osaka basho was cancelled indicated a big drop off in interest, and that's never recovered, even with Terunofuji's great story. Since the start of the pandemic, there's been an indication that casual fans have other things to focus on now. Even where I live and work now, in a non-English speaking and non-Japanese speaking country that has a significant Japanese expat community, the talking points from casual Japanese sumo fans even are always: "is Hakuho winning" or "how did Hakuho do?" While that is anecdotal, it's very easy to draw the correlation with the above point about website traffic to understand that for casual fans anywhere, he is and has been the main hook.

    I don't think - and this is me wearing my day job hat as someone who works in entertainment marketing - that there's been any decline in terms of the number of superfans. That may well have even increased, but in terms of the overall interest from casual fans, that's down quite a bit. I'd back that up from conversations I've had with folks in Japan who participate in the sumo economy, with the fact that no tourists are coming to Japan meaning there are less new fans discovering sumo for the first time, and the global economy around sumo has shrunk accordingly. Sumo is somewhat unique compared to most mainstream sports in that it's an aspirational experience for many of those in the English language community - you can go to a football match anywhere in the world but there's only one place you can go to sumo. That avenue has been shut off for nearly 2 years of tournaments now, so given that there's been no improvement in the digital availability of the sport, and (as pointed out recently by one of Gunning's excellent columns) very few efforts made at international fan acquisition, there's not much pickup of new casual fans. I don't think there's any coincidence that the mini-boom in online sumo fandom (which OGs on this forum will be at pains to point out was itself not comparable to the 80s/90s) around the time of Kisenosato's promotion corresponded with Japan ramping up tourism efforts quite heavily in anticipation of the Olympics. That doesn't impact the original point of why there are (relatively) few comments on this thread, but it can explain why global interest and new fan pickup is down.

    Personally I'd also throw into the picture the fact that the quality of makuuchi is poor at the moment with no meaningful new talents as a reason for the drop-off - which means more of the fan interest and debate has hinged on the exploits of Hakuho - but that's more anecdotal than empirical.

    • Like 6
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  10. 3 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

    Is it just me, or is five thread pages (half filled with my own one-liners) in more than 24 hours a little low for the fact that the most dominant rikishi of all time has called it quits?

     Says more about the peculiar status of Hakuho than a thousand words.

    A few points that feel like they might explain that:

    * Normally we get an intai followed quite swiftly by an official NSK announcement with all the details on what's coming next - press conference, social media content, etc - which we know is a few days away, so there's just a lot of "who the what the?!" There aren't any press conference photos or statements or speeches or anything for folks to dissect.

    * I know this forum is a hotbed of superfanz™ - but it's fair to say that Hakuho or not, global sumo interest is down significantly over the past 18-24 months. And Hakuho's ongoing absences have contributed to that as well, which is a little worrying in and of itself (unless you're someone trying to get sumo tickets in which case it's probably great).

    * We've all known it was coming for over a year, when he said originally that 2020 was going to be his last year in sumo, plus he was under a ticking clock from Miyagino's retirement anyway.

    I think it's shocking but not surprising, if that makes any sense. Probably describes the lesser reaction when it's something we knew was coming, the jolt of him not being anymore leaves some folks a little lost for words, and we're in this vacuum right now of information about what comes next.

    • Like 1

  11. 2 hours ago, Amamaniac said:

    There was plenty of criticism about the Kiribayama henka versus Hoshoryu on Day 10, but at first glance, Meisei's henka against Onosho today was even more reprehensible.

    To be honest, I barely would have considered Kiribayama's a henka and most of the criticism seemed inevitable from the weird Cult of Hoshoryu™. I thought it was actually a heck of a move, he didn't dodge contact, he actually hit him with the right and showed him onto the right side (Hoshoryu's left) out of the tachiai before pivoting left and fully grabbing the back of his mawashi. Whoever was on NHK commentary (I think it was Murray) said it reminded him of some of Harumafuji's old moves and said maybe he'd been watching Harumafuji tapes. Kiribayama certainly could do worse than that.

    • Like 4

  12. 43 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

    It's probably best saved for post basho analysis, but I wonder whether or not the torikumi committee does plan bouts with the worst case scenario in mind. Which begs the question of what their best case scenario is.

    In this basho's case I think it's certainly been helped by the urgent care unit that is the joi-jin, and also the absence of Hakuho. While that doesn't change the fact that either the Yokozuna won't face both Ozeki or the Ozeki won't face each other (or both), the higher rankers have had plenty of match days throughout the basho where the schedulers have had to dip quite a way down owing to the absence of a Yokozuna plus, at times Hokutofuji, Takayasu, Hoshoryu, Kotonowaka...

    It's such a mess in that area that it feels like they would have found it hard to reach their best case scenario, even if Shodai and Takakeisho had rattled off a couple extra wins.

    Forgive me if this was posted earlier and I missed it, but today was the first time in over 82 years that an M1 has faced an M17!? Yikes. An unlike last year's Tokushoryu/Terunofuji M17 fun, this time the M17 wasn't even in the yusho race.

    • Like 1

  13. 23 minutes ago, Eikokurai said:

    Still, we’ve got a weekend with plenty of potential twists and turns ahead of us with that chasing pack behind him, all of whom can keep themselves in the hunt as they’ve not been scheduled against each other (assuming they haven’t faced each other already, which I’ve not checked).

    They have all faced each other already. Shodai's loss seems to make it likely that he's getting Takakeisho (or maybe even Mitakeumi or even Endo?) rather than the Yokozuna on senshuraku, especially if we see more wins from the 10-3 crew tomorrow. The indignity!

    • Thanks 1

  14. 5 hours ago, Katooshu said:

    Since Hoshoryu was brought up, might as well post this pic from his first year of amateur sumo, never seen it before.  Who can name the now pro to his left?

    Looks like probable future sekitori Mineyaiba (nee Ito) out of Shikoroyama beya, (whose brother, new Ito, also joins up this basho)

    • Like 1
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  15. 5 hours ago, Eikokurai said:

    If you follow a major sports league like the Premier League in England or NBA in the US, it’s very easy to find content ranging from 101 stuff up to pretty advanced game analysis, plus of course behind-the-scenes news fills all the airtime and column inches between games. Arguably, it’s over saturated. 

    I'm sad it isn't just the case for sumo unfortunately, but across the board. I've put in years and many many miles studying sumo to understand it as best I can, but I still struggle with my NPB knowledge (and that's even after doing my best Kaisei impression and importing Purosupi for PS4 in Japanese!). But to your point, I'm a subscriber to the Athletic and the level of analysis on baseball or the premier league is just insane. I wish they would be able to incorporate global leagues that sometimes feed players into MLB like NPB, because it's all good writing about Ohtani, but you get more understanding about the achievement when you understand the league where he's come from, and how that league works, and it gives you a more full appreciation of the sport.

    Hopefully they are able to take on this kind of feedback, but - bringing it back on topic - I think that broader sports media paying attention to leagues like NPB or the J-League when they're covering MLB or the premier/champions league could act as a gateway for folks to discover more of Japanese sport, like sumo. Both of those leagues are really unique experiences and if I had been a newcomer to Japanese sport when I discovered them I'd definitely want to know what else was out there.


  16. 3 hours ago, ryafuji said:

    I'm beginning to think Hakuho will never again complete two consecutive tournaments. 

    Considering he has at most 6 more basho including Aki (due to Miyagino retiring next August and clearly given all of Hakuho's prolific recruiting efforts, that stable is not going to be transferred elsewhere), that's probably not a bad thing for him in terms of maintaining his fitness without attracting yet more unwanted criticism

    • Like 1

  17. On 03/09/2021 at 06:58, Jejima said:

    But it seems to me that all of them are trying to be as professional as possible. Tighter editing, additions of 'stings' to break up segments, a little more research prior to recording would make something already good into something that could be even better. Those are my honest opinions, as somebody who listens to several podcasts every day :-)

     I would be interested to hear what others on this forum think of the three podcasts mentioned? Am I being over-harsh?

    I don't think you're being over-harsh, but there are some tough realities with this stuff, especially in the last couple of years. The first one is that, at least for the one I'm on (which is not one of those three), we all record from vastly different locations, which means we've had to hone how it can work over the course of the past few years. Since we're not in the room together, we don't really shoot the shit once we start recording. So I think it takes time for it to improve.

    For Tachiai, the idea was to make a companion piece to the written site content which some people like and some people don't, it's a different format but when we haven't done them, people will say "oh my god where did they go." I personally contribute a lot less written content than I used to, simply because a lot of my content (interviews, keiko, stuff happening at basho, etc) came from being in Japan - which isn't currently possible - which I think makes it harder to then deviate from the standard talking points when you're then doing a podcast. When you're there 4-5 basho a year, it makes it easier to discuss things that don't get covered elsewhere, and to make that interesting. So in the absence of that, I personally tried to at least develop as an analyst, so that I could give my opinions, because if you're not doing that, you're just regurgitating news stories or someone's scores in the previous basho, and I don't know how interesting that is. I listen to a lot of professionally done sports podcasts and they're done by people whose business it is to make them and have years of experience, so it's a hard to compare that to a fan made product - I think with experience everyone will improve, but all these folks presumably also have day jobs which limits how much they can necessarily put into it.

    That leads to my second point, which is kind of more of a thought based on some of the other comments here. I come at it from a different angle than most because I work in (digital) entertainment, but I think the biggest reason currently for the fragmentation of the fanbase across different digital platforms is that no one's really been able to attack the sumo fan community with a business model. Even the NSK doesn't, which we all usually loathe to some degree. There was an explosion of online interest probably 2-3 years ago which has died down a bit for obvious reasons, but I do think that if you're able to build something and feed it with content people want, you'll attract a pretty decent audience regardless of the level of knowledge of the various fans. I think the reason it's fragmented as much as it is is definitely as a result of the variation in what the dominant platforms were when fans discovered sumo, but equally if someone really goes for it, I think that can be surmounted.

    • Like 5

  18. 33 minutes ago, Kaminariyuki said:

    I would think the latter 8-7 scenario would be fair. Essentially, a 4-3 the second week results in a marginal KK, and nobody is demoted. I may be missing something. Why do you think that would be unfair?

    I can see how it might be problematic if a guy has to battle for 14 or 15 days to scratch out the 8 that he needs to stay in the division (let's say Takakento or Asashiyu, who are just below Hokuseiho), and then someone like Hokuseiho is able to show up and get 4 wins, possibly against a depleted field or with even one or two matches against a makushita opponent late in the basho, and ends up in a banzuke position for the following basho that more or less guarantees their sekitori status for a further tournament beyond that. It makes the playing field more uneven than if they were to simply hold their current rank by virtue of being kyujo.

    That being said, I think it's tough for them to look at this and make one heya kyujo in full, multiple times per year. I just don't know that there's a winning solution.

    • Like 2

  19. 3 hours ago, Kintamayama said:

    All other Miyagino beya rikishi  were found negative. As for the heya entering the basho- "

    Some of the rikishi are not feeling well, so the heya will continue to be monitored closely. "We will be consulting with specialists regarding the heya's entering or joining later or whatever, according to the situation," added Shibatayama.

    The idea of "joining later" feels like a really tough situation to try and apply for banzuke purposes

    What they have done to this point is just treat it like a "kosho kyujo" and you (normally) hold your rank. But what happens in this case if they decide that Miyagino must start kyujo but can re-enter after (for example) nakabi? Do they treat a 4-3-8 like a 4-11 as they usually would, or do they treat it like an 8-7? Seems like both outcomes would be a little unfair and would have a tough precedent to be able to set.... especially where in the cases of Enho and Hokuseiho, someone's salary is on the line, or in Ishiura's case, his top division status.

    I appreciate however that no one really has the answers and they're trying to put the best product out there that they can in spite of a never ending headache.

    • Like 2

  20. 6 hours ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

    I'm not sure how the two halves of the sentence hang together. Is Shohozan going to inherit the stable (he does not have a kabu)? Or is it that he might decide to retire rather than continue under a new boss?

     

    2 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    it shouldn't be surprising to anyone to see him choose to retire at a natural inflection point in a heya's continuity whether or not he takes over 

    One piece not to miss here is that it would appear overwhelmingly likely that the reason he doesn't currently have a myoseki is that his stablemaster's may be promised to him - whether or not the intention is for him to take over as shisho (ie. stable becomes renamed after one of the other oyakata - which seems unlikely - or there ends up being a swap that sees one of the other oyakata become Nishonoseki, and Shohozan takes over their kabu).

    But anyway yes, I will personally miss Hattorizakura, the only rikishi I've ever actually wanted to take on in the dohyo!