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Posts posted by rzombie1988

  1. On 23/11/2020 at 18:21, Atenzan said:


    Man, who pissed in their cornflakes? Has the YDC ever been this strict? Putting Hakuhou, who is at least as good as anyone while active and having won a yusho as recently as March, at the same level of caution as Kakuryuu? 

    More dramatically, hinting that consecutive yushos at ozeki isn't necessarily enough to merit a promotion? I can't make head or tail of this, but one thing is clear- sympathy for Konishiki's whingeing is about to run drier than ever. 

    I have no doubt that like a Tim Duncan could return for one night or a small stretch of games and do very well. I have a lot of doubts on whether he could do that for 82 games.

    I think that Hakuho can win one basho after many months off, but I'm doubting whether he can do that if he had to wrestle every match.

    Now the problem here is that while anyone under Ozeki has to not only wrestle but do well in 65-90 matches each year. Kakuryu only had to wrestle 16 times this year and Hakuho only had to wrestle 32 times this year. It's a major advantage to only have to wrestle a 1/5th to 1/2 of the matches other people do. It's a lot less wear and tear and it's a lot less chances for injuries.

    It sucks for the fans who don't get to see the top ranked wrestlers wrestle. It sucks for the promoters who have to convince people to buy tickets and sponsorships for an event where the two most important people might not even show up. It sucks for the wrestlers who can't get kinboshi, can't make the headlines for grabbing a big win over a Yok and can't get better by wrestling against better talent.

    • Like 3

  2. 2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

    A little harsh.  Foreign rikishi who had the culture shock of Ozumo.  He reached Komosubi, which only 25% of sekitori have done since HD 2000.  Did he get fat with bad knees?  Yes, like many.  Career-wise, I'd give him a B-.

    As for Aoiyama, see my post above.  Also too fat and high center of mass, but still can show power; he just doesn't have more than one weapon anymore.  The banzuke will tell him when to exit.

    There was nobody stopping Aoiyama and Gagamaru from dropping some weight except themselves. When your career is affected by your weight, I think it is something you should take a little more seriously.

    16 of 33 current Maegashira have reached Komosubi not counting the 9 current K/S/O/Y ranks. That's almost half of all Maegashira. If you have a good basho around the M4 level, there's a good chance you will get to Komosubi.

    Getting to Komosubi and staying at Komosubi are two very different things. Gaga had 1 tournament at that rank. Aoiyama hit the rank 3 times, but each time he only lasted a single tournament.

  3. 18 hours ago, Gurowake said:

    It was widely predicted that Baruto would have a good chance to make Yokozuna had he stayed uninjured.  The same for Terunofuji, whose story is yet to be completed.  The others you're just being wish washy on.  Which, I guess is your point.  You like Ozeki who are challenging to become Yokozuna, and don't like ones that hang around the rank because they fulfill the requirements, and they can transition between the two as they get older.  I suppose that's reasonable, and is mainly a dislike of how easy it is to stay Ozeki.  But it's certainly something to understand, that if someone who acts like you think an Ozeki should stays healthy and in top form long enough, they are 99% to make Yokozuna.  You're always going to dislike ones that don't make Yokozuna because they are not going to self-demote when they can no longer regularly challenge for the Yusho.

    Yes, that sums up most of my sentiments, though it is totally possible to do 9-12 wins and not advance past Ozeki.

    And I totally get why someone like late career Kaio or Koto wouldn't leave once they start declining. It's hard to pass up all that cash and maybe they really just enjoy what they do.

  4. 1 minute ago, Atenzan said:

    OK, so who do you like? Can you tell us a name of an ozeki who you were satisfied by? Anyone who wasn't a yokozuna? 

    I wouldn't have thought less of Kisenosato if he never made Yokozuna for instance. I would have thought less of him if he never won a title though.

    Baruto was fine, Terunofuji, Kaio before he hung around too long, Konishiki before he got too fat are just some examples.

  5. 29 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

    OK, are there any Ozeki you like who didn't go on to become Yokozuna?  Because your general premise of what you'd prefer in an Ozeki means that, in general, all such Ozeki you like will become Yokozuna, so I'm wondering if there's someone who somehow slipped in between.  Sure, if you want to say that you only like Ozeki who are good enough to go on to Yokozuna, that's fine.  But you need to understand that's basically what you're saying, because you don't seem to right now.

    OK, "the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai" implies that you liked them before the end.  But thus you're basically saying you simply don't like the Ozeki demotion process, which has little to do with the Ozeki themselves.  Both were very good Ozeki in their time who didn't make Yokozuna, but were good enough to put up an 8-7 every other basho as their abilities declined and thus held their rank a long time.  Should they have said "You know what, demote me, because there's this guy on the Internet that doesn't like the Ozeki demotion rules"?

    I want to see Ozeki who can get into title races and maybe even win sometimes. I don't like Ozeki who just kind of hang on for years without much else going on. And Kotoshogiku had many really embarrassing losses where he would get henka'd and take action movie style falls, which doesn't bring a lot of prestige to the rank.

    I get why Ozeki hang around when their time is almost up - paychecks are nice,  just it doesn't entertain me very much. I'd rather remember the Konishiki who was a freaking force, not the Konishiki that got too heavy and got embarrassed by people he was better than.


  6. 1 hour ago, Kishinoyama said:

    You shouldn't be apologizing because you have done nothing wrong. I stopped feeding the troll.  The zombie doesn't care about facts. He makes an argument and when you counter the argument with facts, then he tries to change the subject with a different argument. I don't see his posts now unless someone quotes what he says.

    The statement you made above about posting in a tribute thread about Ozeki standard arguments is spot on. A tribute thread is not the place for them. It is obvious that the zombie doesn't like Kotoshogiku so why say anything in the first place? 

    What facts am I missing here?

    Kotoshogiku was able to get 8-9 wins for a long time...just that's it. He was rarely ever the best Ozeki on the banzuke and he was rarely ever able to be in the mix for a possible title. Some people really appreciate that, I don't.

    This was not labeled as a Kotoshogiku lovefest only thread. If you had labelled it as such, I would not be in this thread.

  7. 2 hours ago, Hakuryuho said:

    Didn't we already have this discussion a few months back?

    Being able to sit out bashos is not an advantage, it's a hard-earned privilege granted only to those at the very top of the sport. 

    Hakuho and Kakuryu are able to have this "advantage" because of their rank, but they had to get there first. They had to be in every basho, fight all 15 days, 
    otherwise they wouldn't have fulfilled the requirement of 33 wins over 3 bashos to get promoted to Ozeki and the equivalent of two yusho in a row to get to Yokozuna.

    If a rikishi wants to take a few months off he can do so! He just has to go through all the stages required for becoming a Yokozuna, just like every other Yokozuna had to do so before him.  ;-)


    Yes we did and I still feel the same way.

    If I'm Kagayaki, I'd prefer to have Hakuho's 23 matches this year or Kakuryu's 13 matches this year over the 65 matches he had. That's up to 52 extra chances of getting injured plus all the fatigue and wear and tear that comes with a sumo match. That's a major advantage. And as a fan, I want to see the Yokozuna competing in every tournament.

    In my ideal world, there would be match completion requirements per 2 years for Yokozuna(we'll just stick with Yokozuna for this topic). Obviously, it's not reality, but it's something I would like to see.

    Hopefully the JSA/YDC forces their hand.

    • Haha 1

  8. I believe both Hakuho and Kakuryu should wrestle or step down.

    It is just too much of an advantage to be able to take months off and heal up while others have to wrestle six 15 match tournaments a year and get punished hard if they get injured doing it.

    I believe Shaq could maybe come back for one night and have a 20 point game if he trained hard for it. But I don't believe he would be able to hold up for a full season. I believe the same with Kakuryu and Hakuho.


    And unless we are extending the Yokozuna process again, Takakeisho should get the rope as he hit the same requirements Kakuryu and Kisenosato did, though obviously there's reasons to be concerned due to his lesser early year.

    • Like 1

  9. 20 hours ago, Atenzan said:

    And yet the mechanics of the rank, and top-flight sumo in general, consistently make it so that whoever surpasses these thresholds of being unimpressive turns out to be a yokozuna rather than an ozeki. 

    Since we're getting nowhere with this exchange, could you provide, say, 5 examples of ozeki (not yokozuna) you didn't find unimpressive over the last 25-30 years? And if not, allow me to make a friendly suggestion to lower your standards to more reasonable ones- you may end up enjoying sumo more that way. 

    I'm not really disagreeing that really good Ozeki often become Yokozuna. It's not a guarantee though. Kise went 10/10/10/10/10/13/11/11/13 and had a 2 year run from Jan '15 to Jan '17 where his two weakest bashos were at 9 wins. He eventually did make it, but as we talked about elsewhere in this thread, one bad fall and it's all over.

    Some people here prioritize being able to get 8-9 wins for years on end and others like me would rather someone have a good year or two where they go big but then burn out for other reasons. That's a difference of opinion.

    I've already listed Ozeki I didn't really like that much in this thread like Goeido, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku and the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai.



  10. 19 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

    It would seem to me that those who are trying to make their cases against rzombie's pointless arguments at this time should just give it a rest. It seems very clear to me that he is trolling this thread and unfortunately taking away from the accomplishments that Kotoshogiku has achieved over the years and not giving him the respect that is due. He is coming back with the same tired argument, although I would love to see if he does have a response for Atenzan. 

    You and Seiyashi have done very little but harass me in this thread, with the latter taking it over to another thread now.

    If you don't agree with my take, that's fine. Make your point, argue your side and if all else fails, you can just stop replying. But don't you dare harass me, call me names, accuse me of things or try to bully me into changing my opinion.

  11. 11 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    No feeding...

    Aoiyama is 6'3 and over 400lbs. Nobody should be able to move him, yet he has gone makekoshi in 8 of his last 12 basho's and has 28 makekoshi's to his name.

    Atleast with an Enho or an Ura, you can blame their results on size. But there's just no excuse for a guy not to do well who almost always has the height, weight and reach advantage.

    I also rarely see Aoiyama try to do anything but win matches through force or size. There's over 50 some ways to win matches, yet I only see him stick with 3 or so.

    Are you seriously going to tell me that you see Aoiyama give 110% effort night in and night out and do everything he can to win?


  12. 1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

    Wins per basho while Ozeki:

    Kaio 8.1; Chiyotaikai 7.9; Musoyama 6.9; Tochiazuma 6.9; Dejima 8.3; Miyabiyama 7.1; Kotomitsuki 8.3; Kotoshogiku 8.0; Kotooshu 8.0; Baruto 8.9; Goeido 7.9; Takayasu 7.5; Tochinoshin 5.0; Terunofuji 6.9; Takakeisho 7.9

    Harumafuji wins/basho: Ozeki 9.7, Yokozuna 9.5

    Kakuryu wins/basho: Ozeki 9.9, Yokozuna 6.8

    Kisenosato wins/basho: Ozeki 10.7, Yokozuna 3.0

    Hakuho wins/basho: Ozeki 10.4, Yokozuna 11.2 [that's why he's the GOAT]

    Yokozuna totals include kyujo, just like the Ozeki.

    So 1) Kotoshogiku looks to be slightly above average in this metric; 2) you can hang in surprisingly long at Ozeki without averaging a kachi-koshi per basho; 3) I have uncovered the heretofore obscure but powerful theory that


    Don't count Takayasu or Terunofuji yet since their careers are still ongoing. I don't see Tochinoshin hitting Ozeki again but Takayasu, maybe.

    I'm just not super impressed or intrigued by Kotoshogiku getting 8-9 wins for few years yet rarely being a threat or a contender. Some people here clearly value that more than I do. Longevity is as much part luck as it is training or skill. I'd rather be the Baruto who had a higher ceiling that collapsed due to injuries than Kotoshogiku who was around a long time but was never in the mix.

    The best Ozeki usually do become Yokozuna. But average or below average Ozeki can stay Ozeki longer than they should due to the double/triple chance rule they have,

  13. 23 minutes ago, Dwale said:

    I think he'll be ok. He can use his time down in juryo to regroup, and, ideally, come back reinvigorated. 

    Enho's too small. He has to work twice as hard as others do and in the end, he's probably just going to get injured when Aoiyama lands on him. We've seen the same thing happen with people like Ura, Ishiura and Takanoyama. Great wrestlers, but there's only so much they can do.

    It's a shame but size really matters in sumo.

  14. Just some thoughts:

    Overall, this was not a strong basho talent wise. Both Yok's were out and two of three Ozeki were out. If there are diamonds in the rough out there, this was the tournament to shine in.

    Hakuho and Kakuryu shouldn't be allowed to miss any more tournaments. It's been too many and it's too much of an advantage to get these long vacations while everyone else beats each other up.

    I'm actually a little disappointed with Terunofuji's run. He was getting these numbers with stronger fields and really should won this. You can tell his balance is not that great right now and he is a lot more beatable than he used to be. After all this time, I doubt whether that's going to get any better.

    Big credit to Takakeisho for possibly getting a Yokozuna run out of this. If there was ever a basho to show up, this was it. His November-July numbers were not Yokozuna level though and if those return, he's going to regret this promotion. I like is confidence and attitude, but I don't think he really is better than Terunofuji.

    Asanoyama got unlucky with the injuries. This was a bad tournament to miss for someone like him.

    Takayasu and Mitakeumi had really disappointing tournaments and maybe in another timeline, Takayasu is where Takakeisho is right now. "Whatever happened to Takayasu?" feels like a possible headline soon.



  15. On 21/11/2020 at 12:30, Atenzan said:

    Of those that have already retired, wins per 15 makuuchi bouts:

    Kaiou- 9.03

    Chiyotaikai- 8.97

    Takanonami- 8.67

    Kirishima- 7.58

    Hokuten'yuu- 9.08

    Konishiki- 8.66

    Tochiazuma- 9.3


    Looks like a hell of a lot of doing an "unimpressive" 8 or 9 wins to me. Kotoshougiku had 8.21 himself, 8.46 at the time of his demotion. Was he a below-average ozeki? Probably. But he wasn't the worst one, and he merited the rank, and even reaching it is, for me, impressive. 

    Again, for the 3rd or 4th time, I'm just not a fan of Ozeki hanging on with 8-9 win bashos. I just don't think it's impressive to be able to lose 6-7 times and still keep your rank. I think that's a lot of losing for the 2nd best rank in sumo

    Kaio had a really good run for a while and should have been made Yokozuna twice, and would be by today's standards, Then he made the rank look bad by hanging on for 5 years when he shouldn't of. 5 Titles, 6 JY's as an Ozeki. Great Ozeki up until 2005.

    Chioyotaikai shouldn't have been able to keep his rank from 2008 on. 2 titles though and 7JY's as an Ozeki.

    Takanonami has a really weird history of results, with nice highpoints mixed with some random bad basho in between. He was better though that Kotoshogiku, and during a much harder time period. 2 Yushos, 7 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

    Kirishima's record fit his demotion/promotion status.  1 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either.

    Hokutenyu should have been demoted in 1986, but his 1988-1990 campaign was good. 1 title at Sekiwake, 1 title at Ozeki, 2 Jun-Yusho as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either.

    Konishiki was dropped a few months late. 3 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

    Tochiazuma should have been dropped from 2002-2003 and in 2004 after his title win. He retired in-time. 3 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki.

    Kotoshogiku should have been dropped in 2015 and should have been dropped in 2016. 1 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki.


  16. 1 hour ago, Yamanashi said:

    Since Miyagiyama (records unclear), every Yokozuna spent at least the previous two basho as an Ozeki.

    He'll have the numbers for Ozeki. Just really depends on how hard they are going to be on his rank levels in a possible Ozeki and Yokozuna run.

    The system just punishes legitimate injuries hard, and I'd like to see some kind of adjustment so it doesn't do that anymore. Maybe some kind of set-up where if you are a Tochinoshin or a Terunofuji type, you can take one long period of time off straight without breaks and without pay, but when you do come back, there is no leniency.

  17. So even though I don't agree with people getting the Yokozuna title without two straight wins, it appears Takakeisho should be the next Yokozuna under Kakuryu and Kisenosato standards.

    Remember when Kakuryu got the rope? He won the tournament then the next one after, he lost a playoff to Hakuho? Well, it seems like Terunofuji would be in the position if he wins the next one, unless they try to punish him for his lesser rank.

  18. 4 hours ago, Atenzan said:

    So, a yokozuna? 

    Do you know who the last ozeki was who averaged 10 wins per 15 makuuchi bouts and didn't make yokozuna? I didn't. It's good old Tachihikari, who had a briefish tenure at the rank before getting apparently injured in 1926.

    An ozeki is someone who has won 32 or 33 of 45 bouts against the top 16 rikishi in 3 consecutive basho (very impressive) and now called to sustain a diet of winning a simple majority of his bouts against the top 16 rikishi. Kotoshougiku did exactly that for the best part of a decade and won a yusho in the process against tough opposition. I find that extremely impressive. 

    As I said, I'm not very impressed with only grabbing 8 or 9 wins and that's because you could theoretically lose to every other Yokozuna/Ozeki and someone else and still get the KK.

  19. 20 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

    You are calling Terunofuji better than Kotoshogiku by your standards? I see that he stayed at the rank for 14 basho, which is less than half the time spent by Kotoshogiku at the rank. 3 JY and NO yusho. Almost every other basho was a make-koshi (including a 2-13 and 4-11 twice). Please elaborate on your thought process here. 

    You missed some details in my post. I never called him GREAT. However I would say despite that he never overwhelmingly was able to get to the next level (just like his contemporaries Goeido, Kotooshu, Baruto) he still held his own against those who got above him such as Hakuho, Harumafuji, Kisenosato, and Kakuryu. Let's overlook his lopsided record against Hakuho, he managed a 22-30 record against Kakuryu, 21-30 record against Goeido, and had winning records against Kisenosato (36-30) and Harumafuji (33-29). Not only that, he managed to get more makuuchi wins than both Kisenosato and Harumafuji, making him the second ozeki on the top 10 list and behind Taiho of all people. That is a pretty respectable achievement in my opinon.

    Terunofuji won 2 titles. Simple as that. I'd rather have Terunofuji's two titles than Kotoshogiku's longevity.  Terunofuji is also still active with many years left.

    I explained my thoughts on longevity earlier. There's some skill for sure, but there's only so much you can do about injuries and just bad luck. It's just not a fair stat because things happen. I think win averages and win totals per year are better stats to work with in sumo. Win/loss totals vs various wrestlers is also likely a good stat.

  20. 48 minutes ago, WAKATAKE said:

    For him not being a good ozeki, having won at least a yusho and at least having gotten a jun-yusho, he seems to have done better than a few other ozeki that I know of while they were at the rank:





    You seem to be just wanting to derail this discussion by throwing Kotoshogiku under the bus, for what reason I'm not really understanding. Not only did he get a yusho and have a pretty long career compared to the average time spent at the rank, but he even got kinboshi against all his former rivals at the top, and lasted for a time post ozeki career which was above the average as well. Just what are trying to get at by saying that he was not a good ozeki?

    To quote myself:

    "If we looked through Ozekis who never made Yokozuna - He was not better than Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Terunofuji, Takanonami, Kirishima, Hokutenyu, Konishiki or Tochiazuma. He was better than Kotooshu, DejimaMiyabiyama, Asashio and Musoyama, who no one would say were great Ozeki. Baruto was better, but if you want to discount him due to his record, fine. Kotomitsuki was more competitive, just not as an Ozeki, strangely. "

    "Even Goeido was arguably better than him and Goeido was never really that impressive either."

    "He had one Jun-Yusho and one Yusho in 32 tournaments as an Ozeki. He only reached 33 wins in 3 tournaments once as an Ozeki and only hit 10 wins in 9 of 32 basho as an Ozeki."

    How can you claim he was a great ozeki when the only Ozeki he was really better than were bad Ozeki?

  21. 45 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

    I know, I know, but maybe your missing the point.  He was so good as an Ozeki that they promoted him to this super-Ozeki rank called Yokozuna.

    It's really a bummer how lousy most Ozeki are; it makes it even more mysterious that there aren't ten or twenty of them, since it's so easy to do what they do.(Thinkingindepth...)

    He didn't get Yokozuna until he won 2 titles straight, which everyone except Kakuryu had to do since Futahaguro.

    8-9 win bashos as an Ozeki aren't that impressive to me. You figure, there's usually 2 Yokozuna and 4 Ozeki. That means you could lose to all of them and two others and still get your KK. That's not impressive.

    Ranks don't mean anything if the requirements to get them or stay in them are low. And I'm in full favor of needing ___ wins in 2 years to stay at both Ozeki and Yokozuna ranks.

  22. 43 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

    I don't feel the bad vibes about Giku or any other Ozeki with more than ~15 basho at that level.  Kotoshogiku lasted 32 basho as Ozeki, Goeido 33, Kotooshu 47.  Two yusho in a row will make you Yokozuna, but two MK in a row will make you Sanyaku; it seems the latter is much more likely, especially in the Asashoryu/Hakuho eras.  Kisenosato was an Ozeki for 31 basho before he became Yokozuna; he beat three Yokozuna and two Ozeki, and got a Jun-Yusho for his efforts.  I don't mind that these guys don't regularly beat Yokozuna -- if they did, they'd be Yokozuna too!

    Oh, and the under 15 basho Ozeki were almost all victims of injuries; if they'd only made Yokozuna, maybe they'd still be holding their rank after taking five or six basho off.

    Quality, not quantity for me.

    Yes, it's easier to lose than to win. No arguments there.

    Let's talk about Kisenosato. He had 12 JY's, and won 10 matches or more in 24 of 31 basho's as an Ozeki. That's what I'm looking for in Ozeki. In the same timeframe, Giku had 1 JY and only had 10 wins in 9 of 32 times.

  23. 2 hours ago, Kishinoyama said:

    Once again, you make a statement and I counter that statement with a fact. Now you have done it again. Now I am done.

    I'm sure you can find a few of his 32 basho's as an Ozeki where if x or y had happened, he might have gotten a JY or a Yusho.

    But I'm sure I can say the same thing for other Ozeki at a higher frequency, hence me saying he was just not that good of an Ozeki.

  24. On 18/11/2020 at 18:17, Benevolance said:

    The yusho was decided on the final day. (Injonokuchi...)  And he beat Hakuho en route to stay within 1 loss.

    And, to be fair, nobody who wasn't named Hakuho was ever really in the mix to win during those years. In the year that Kotoshogiku was promoted, Hakuho lost a total of 9 matches out of 90, and two of those losses were to the Geek. Practically god-like*.

    Kisenosato had 2 titles and 12 JY's. Kakuryu grabbed 6 titles and 8 JY's. Harumafuji had 9 titles and 8 JY's. Terunofuji already has 2 titles and 4 JY's. These guys figured it out when Kotoshogiku couldn't.

    Just as someone had to win the tournament, someone had to come in second place too and as we proved above, Koto could only manage that once. And I have a feeling that if we went through to see how many times he would have finished third, the numbers wouldn't be much better. He was just not a great Ozeki.