Posts posted by rzombie1988
18 hours ago, Hankegami said:
Considering that a good part of the argument made in favor of Hokuseiho in the video gravitates around his exceptional height, I ran a query and checked how well the tallest-ever rikishi fared in Ozumo. I put a lower limit of 195 cm of height, otherwise we could have entered a "very-tall-but-not-that-tall" area including 192 cm Hakuho and Terunofuji.
Rikishi are down here put in order of successful career (from Yokozuna to Jonokuchi) with extra data like their yushos.
1. Akebono (active 1988-2001) Yokozuna (11 M yusho) 204 cm (7th highest measurement) 200 kg
2. Ozutsu (acive 1887-1908) Yokozuna (2 M yusho) 197 cm (13th) 134 kg
3. Futahaguro (active 1979-1988) Yokozuna (1 J, 1 Jk yusho) 199 cm (11th) 151 kg
4. Raiden (active 1790-1811) Ozeki (26 M yusho*) 197 cm* (13th) 169 kg
5. Tamagaki (active 1778-1797) Ozeki (3 M yusho*) 197 cm* (13th) unknown weight
6. Takanonami (active 1987-2004) Ozeki (2 M yusho) 195 cm (15th) 157 kg
7. Baruto (active 2004-2013) Ozeki (1 M, 3 J, 1 Ms, 1 Jd, 1 Jk yusho) 197 cm (13th) 186 kg
8. Kotooshu (active 2002-2014) Ozeki (1 M, 1 J, 1 Ms, 1 Jd yusho) 204 cm (7th) 140 kg
9. Ouchiyama (active 1944-1959) Ozeki (1 Ms yusho) 202 cm (9th) 152 kg
10a. Shakagatake (active 1770-1774) Ozeki (no record) 223 cm* (2nd) 169 kg
10b. Kumonryu (active 1787-1798) Ozeki (no record) 206 cm* (6th) 150 kg
10c. Eshimagata (active 1778-1780) Ozeki (no record) 206 cm* (6th) 180 kg
11. Musashigata (active 1863-1885) Sekiwake (2 M yusho*) 209 cm (4th) 140 kg
12. Kaisei (active 2006-2022) Sekiwake (1 J yusho) 195 cm (15th) 187 kg
13. Fudoiwa (active 1940-1954) Sekiwake (1 Ms yusho) 213 cm (3rd, tallest confirmed) 130 kg
14. Dewagatake (active 1917-1939) Sekiwake (no yusho) 203 cm (8th) 180 kg
14a. Hiregatake (active 1794-1795) Sekiwake (no record) 197 cm* (13th) unknown weight
14b. Miyagino (active 1814-1835) Sekiwake (no record) 197 cm* (13th) unknown weight
15. Wakanoho (active 2005-2008) M1 (1 Jd yusho) 195 cm (15th) 156 kg
16a. Urakaze (active 1853-1868) M1 (no yusho) 208 cm* (5th) 150 kg
16b. Tochinowaka (active 2007-2015) M1 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 179 kg
17. Kotowaka (active 1971-1985) M2 (1 Ms yusho) 197 cm (13th) 134 kg
18. Ikuzuki (active 1844-1850) M7 (no record) 227 cm* (1st) 169 kg
19. Miyateyama (active 1843-1849) M8 (no record) 197 cm* (13th) 131 kg
20. Daihisho (active 1992-2001) M10 (1 Jk yusho) 195 cm (15th) 175 kg
21. Yoshiazuma (1996-active!) M12 (no yusho) 197 cm (13th) 166 kg
22. Tachihikari (active 1982-1994) M15 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 152 kg
23. Banjo (aka Harukaze, active 1929-1941) J2 (1 Ms, 1 Jd yusho) 197 cm (13th) 113 kg
24. Chiinoyama (active 1940-1945) J3 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 146 kg
25. Hokuseiho (2020-active) J9 [possibly abt. J6 for Kyushu] (1 Ms, 1 Sd, 1 Jd, 1 Jk yusho) 200 cm (10th) 164 kg
26. Daishoryu (active 1980-1991) Ms3 (2 Sd yusho) 195 cm (15th) 146 kg
27. Kaishoryu (active 1987-2004) Ms6 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 149 kg
28. Daisho (active 1964-1977) Ms13 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 107 kg
29. Yamanami (active 1985-1993) Ms14 (no yusho) 197 cm (13th) 126 kg
30. Kyokushozan (active 1990-1993) Ms22 (no yusho) 200 cm (10th) 166 kg
31. Kawaguchi (active 1992-2002) Ms26 (1 Sd yusho) 196 cm (14th) 163 kg
32. Tendoriki (active 1990-1996) Ms28 (no yusho) 199 cm (11th) 182 kg
33. Oazuma (active 2006-2022) Ms30 (1 Jd, 1 JK yusho) 197 cm (13th) 151 kg
34. Hokutoo (active 2008-2022) Ms41 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 135 kg
35. Fujigatake (active 1976-1984) Ms56 (1 Sd yusho) 200 cm (10th) 120 kg
36. Oishibashi (active 1986-1990) Ms58 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 128 kg
37. Raiun (active 1987-1992) Sd21 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 117 kg
38. Homarenishiki (active 2015-2016) Sd46 (no yusho) 196 cm (14th) 153 kg
39. Daiketsu (active 1984-1987) Jd24 (no yusho) 197 cm (13th) 107 kg
40. Isomusashi (active 1994-1999) Jd30 (no yusho) 198 cm (12th) 101 kg
41. Ozaki (active 1998-2001) Jd94 (no yusho) 198 cm (12th) 99 kg
42. Kotoosako (active 1991-1994) Jd106 (no yusho) 198 cm (12th) 100 kg
43. Kitaoji (active 2004) Jd114 (no yusho) 198 cm (12th) 137 kg
44. Hokukimura (active 2000) Jk1 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 138 kg
45. Muta (active 1982-1985) Jk5 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 92 kg
46. Tamahosato (active 1978-1979) Jk9 (no yusho) 199 cm (11th) 110 kg
47. Narita (active 2001) Jk29 (no yusho) 200 cm (10th) 133 kg
48. Yata (active 2017) Jk30 (no yusho) 195 cm (15th) 203 kg
As you all can see, Hokuseiho is placed on spot 25 of this particular query, about half the ladder (but notice that heights of 18th-19th century rikishi cannot be trusted, see asterisks). However, it becomes immediately clear that very few rikishi can equate his palmarès, most closely #7 Baruto and #8 Kotooshu, that is two darn Ozeki. Second closest comes #3 Futahaguro, a - well - somewhat a Yokozuna. Anyway, no small fry apparently managed to collect lower division titles without breaking big. Moreover, although some very tall guys had their careers clearly cut short by (knee?) injuries, it is remarkable that no rikishi taller than Hokuseisho himself failed to enter Maakuchi. The tallest confirmed rikishi, Fudoiwa, even made it to Sekiwake while being 213 cm.
In conclusion, extreme height is definitively an advantage in Sumo, and Hokuseiho can dream big for three simple reasons 1) he's tally tally tall 2) he has a taste for winning 3) he already passed over the lower divisions, proving himself. It's just up to him to decide whther to land soft and be content to get a ticket for Maakuchi, or fulfill his potential and get at least to Ozeki. On the downside, the only Yokozuna taller than Hokuseiho is Akebono, that is a 204 cm, 200 kg behemoth. Futahaguro (but we can count him as a Yokozuna?) was slightly shorter than him, and Ozutsu (again not a particularly strong Yokozuna) was 3 cm shorter. All the other Yokozuna were much shorter, the next tallest being the 192 cm gang (Musashimaru, Hakuho, Terunofuji). This datum could suggest that being too tall is actually bad to get the very top job Hokuseiho is aiming at.
I did some similar research here about bigger guys doing well in sumo a while back since there seemed to be a large correlation, though I got very different and mostly negative responses:
Hokuseiho is getting a lot of talk because he's tall and young. As I've said before, if I ran a stable, I'd probably not even bother with guys under 6 foot. It's not that they can't be great wrestlers, but people like Ura and Ishiura have to be so much more technically proficient and work so much harder than big guys like Gagamaru, Aoiyama and Kaisei did to get the similar results. I legitimately think you can get to Makuuchi mostly on size alone.
Height is advantageous in sumo because:
- You can pack on more weight and muscle on without affecting performance and at the end of the day, the heavier a wrestler is, the harder they are to move. Smaller wrestlers can only pack so much weight on before performance is affected.
- The taller wrestlers have a major reach advantage (which should be talked about more in sumo) and someone like Hokuseiho could push someone like Ura without Ura being able to touch him
- Taller wrestlers have a longer distance from their head to their mawashi than shorter wrestlers do and if Ura and Hokuseiho were both bent over against each other, I doubt Ura could even touch Hoku's mawashi without going to the side.
- Hokuseiho can also push down on smaller wrestlers and reach their mawashi's by going down the back, which they can't do to him. I don't know how much the pushing down helps but certainly being able to grab their mawashi's from above is a nice advantage.
I think one other thing that should be brought up in this thread is that some rikishi may not have any interest in acquiring kabu and staying in sumo.
The field has been really weak for the last couple of tournaments and some of the results here were just downright embarrassing. If you cannot get to 12 wins under these conditions, what are you doing in sanyaku? Hokuseiho and crew can't come soon enough.
Asanoyama really screwed up by getting suspended. He likely would be Yokozuna and would have a couple of titles now if he hadn't gotten in trouble. I bet Hakuho's probably regretting retiring too as he would have easily won this one if he had stuck around.
I knew Tamawashi was winning this when he was in the lead at Day 9. There was just no way a proven vet like him was letting this golden ticket go.
I haven't been watching too much lately. In any kind of combat sports like this, there is usually a change of the guard every generation and we are currently in that. I didn't get to see the last change of the guard, but it takes a while to get people established. I think Mitakeumi may be able to become a Yokozuna, though I really question if he could while Hakuho was still around.
There's a real murderer's row of guys coming in from Makushita soon. Makuuchi better be prepared. Shishi, Hokuseiho and Kinbozan are all 190+ cm and they are coming.
I really feel bad for Takayasu. Quite possibly one of the last chances he realistically had to get a title and he loses it twice.
I would really like a button to see all of the stables and see which wrestlers are in them.
I didn't watch much of the basho as I figured Terunofuji would have an easy time. Glad to see he won.
I hope Mitakeumi doesn't get promoted yet. His record isn't impressive enough. 8-7 and 9-6 are hardly records to be excited about, especially with this less than stellar group.
$20 million on a stable is just dumb. You don't even technically need a ring to train sumo.
I think it's the right call. He hasn't completed a full year of tournaments since 2015-2016. It's really not fair to the other wrestlers who in some cases have had to do 200 more matches where they could get injured while he got the day off. I think him staying around also made it harder for the next generation to get the spotlight put on them.
Yes, he can take a break and compete for a title, but how many other wrestlers could do the same with months to recover?
He will go down as one of the best yokozuna ever, but he was also one of the luckiest. He was very lucky to have weak competition as there was no one up to par from Asa's retirement to Harumafuji's promotion, which helped him rack up a lot of victories. He then got really lucky again in 2017 as Harumafuji got kicked out, Kisenosato never recovered from his injury, Terunofuji got demoted due to his injuries and Kakuryu was just not a consistent threat.
Don't agree with the whole Japanese citizenship thing, but I won't be going into that any further here.
Glad Terunofuji got the nod. It should have happened already though.
Curious to see if Hakuho can make the next two basho in the a row.
Glad he got promoted. Should have been in 2015 and should have been in March/May of this year. Him being able to take off tournaments when he isn't 100% is really going to help him out.
20 minutes ago, Katooshu said:
Size is generally advantage, I think most would agree. That's quite different from saying that being 190cm or taller, with 'enough weight', means you should easily make juryo. There are all sorts of guys in that range who haven't done that.
I don't believe that post was in good faith. That person and I have been having issues dating back to 2014 when Kakuryu became Yokozuna. Some people just don't get along for various reasons. We haven't interacted in a long time and I'd prefer to keep it that way unless my hand is forced.
I think it was obvious that I don't think anyone over 190cm can just walk in and get to Juryo, but taller wrestlers have a better chance of doing so. If I were recruiting for sumo, I would pretty much only search for taller recruits due to their physical advantages. That's why every other combat sport has weight divisions.
16 hours ago, Asashosakari said:
Nothing learned in five years, impressive.
I guess I'll just quote my response from back then.
I could be intentionally rude back to you but I can do better.
Bigger wrestlers have longer reaches, can have more weight behind them without their performance declining and can generate more force with their increased weights. All of these things are advantageous to sumo. Does it absolutely mean anyone who is over 190 can walk right in and get to Juryo? No, but the list below shows some evidence to my theory of taller wrestlers generally having higher chances of success in sumo.
Since I can't figure out how to do a search for the tallest wrestlers ever on the sumodb to see how they did, I will have to go another route. http://xn--psso2y7wo.jp/rikishiPro/senreki/6431 - Here's a list of the tallest sumo wrestlers ever. I will only count the people with actual photos as sumo was different in the 1800's with some people just being gifted high spots and much data is missing on the older wrestlers.
Of the 60 wrestlers listed, 22 had a photo. All 22 made it to Makushita and 17(soon to be 18) of the 22 made it to Juryo:
Fudoiwa - Sekiwake
Kotooshu - Ozeki
Dewagatake - Sekiwake
Hokuseiho - Probably at the top of the 3rd division next basho and likely Juryo in September.
Kotowaka Chikao - Juryo
Futahaguro - Yokozuna
Baruto - Ozeki
Yoshiazuma - Makuuchi
Daihisho - Makuuchi
Oazuma - 3rd division
Takanonami - Ozeki
Kaishoryu - 3rd division, Ms6w was his highest rank
Ikioi - Sekiwake
Tochinowaka - Makuuchi
Okano - 3rd division
Gokenzan - Juryo
Hokutoo - 3rd division - Still active, but yes, probably not making it any further
Chiyonowaka - Juryo
Mitoizumi - Sekiwake
Tachihikari - Makuuchi
Wakanoho - Makuuchi
Roho - Komosubi
I look forward to your reply.
The double dohyo's really aren't too big of a deal. I really don't think doing sumo on grass or something is really going to have too much affect on your performance.
If Kise wants to do well, he should just recruit a bunch of big guys. You can get to Juryo no problem if you are 190cm or more with enough weight.
Glad the basho's over. It was a complete waste of time as far as I'm concerned since Terunofuji wasn't getting the nod here no matter what happened, even though he's obviously deserving of it. Takakeisho should have already been promoted using the Kakuryu rule of a win + a 2nd place result, though he has the lesser case of the two.
Hopefully both guys do well next tournament and we can finally stop playing games.
And on Asanoyama, it's the lying that got him. Had he just fessed up to breaking the rule, he would have been a lot better off. I don't think we will be talking about him again until 2023.
10 hours ago, Eikokurai said:
Shortcuts and tradition
There are shortcuts. Ozeki can have a bad tournament and not lose rank as long as they get 8 wins the next time for years at time. They can even blow or miss two tournaments in a row and get back to their rank if they win 10 times. They can do this as a reward for reaching the Ozeki rank. The shortcuts get worse with Yokozuna. See Hakuho and Kakuryu who missed massive amounts of matches yet keep their rank as a reward for reaching Yokozuna.
It's a historical system, which has undergone many changes itself, but not a perfect system.
And no, I wasn't implying anything about being Japanese or Mongolian. I just forgot about Shodai.
Even if Hakuho returns in July, what's the path going forward? He's 36, with lots of injuries and only averages about 2-3 complete tournaments a year going back to 2018, while everyone else has had to take 100+ more matches.
I think it's a bad look that Terunofuji came 2nd in the last two basho's and won this one, yet at best is two tournaments away from getting to Yokozuna. And what happens if he wins the May tournament but then gets injured and can't compete in the July tournament? He'd be facing kadoban despite having a more impressive record than anyone else in sumo and would then need probably another two tournaments to get the Yokozuna promotion.
I think it further sucks that all of this is happening with both Yokozuna's out. They can say "well, he was just a Komusubi/Sekiwake and his path to victory wasn't as hard as an Ozeki's was", but there were no Yokozuna, so he was fighting the exact same opponents than an Ozeki would have. Yet if a Takakeisho or Asanoyama pulled his same results off during the last few bashos, they would be Yokozuna right now.
I think it was the right call.
I haven't been very interested in this tournament. As has been the case for the year now, Hakuho and Kakuryu not wrestling has been the biggest story. They don't compete and the tournament looks lackluster through no fault of the wrestlers. And that problem looks like it is going on until at least July as there is no way Hakuho makes the next tournament and whatever is going on with Kakuryu seems more mental than physical. Even if they do come back, how much left they do they have at 35 and 36?
I think it's going to look bad if Terunofuji pulls this off and only gets Ozeki out of it, which is undoubtedly what will happen. Would a win here and in May even be enough for yokozuna? I'm skeptical. Asanoyama will be similarly stuck too if he pulls this off.
Kakuryu is 35 and hasn't completed 5 tournaments in one year since 2017. Even if he comes back in March, do we really expect him to be able to make May and July?
Hakuho got an "out" this basho, but it's the same story. The odds of him making some miraculous non-covid recovery back into full-time status aren't looking good.
Someone like a Tamawashi has had 160 more matches Hakuho and 178 more matches than Kakuryu since 2017. It's beyond unfair.
13 minutes ago, ryafuji said:
There is no stable page. There's only kabu, which is linked (if applicable).
The website already knows which stable each wrestlers is in as their stable is listed.
All I'm asking for is that a page is created for each stable so we can see where each person belongs and who else is in their stable.
If you take some of the replies here at face value, you would think I am talking Chinese and that nobody here has any idea what I'm talking about. If you start considering the events of the last week on this sub involving 2 other users in this thread, it seems like there's a little more to it.
6 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:
And where exactly do you think it should link to?
When you see the wrestler's stable, you should be able to click it and it should take you to the stable page, as I said.
I'd really love to see a link on each page to the wrestler's stable.
On 28/11/2020 at 16:19, Kintamayama said:
Racism accusations - I don't believe this is a race thing. Not that it matters. Once you start bring up that stuff, it's a dead end road that no one will ever find a happy solution to. The accusers will never be happy and the accused will never be able to do enough.
YDC not being health experts- Okay, the YDC are not health experts. That's a fair point.
Injury concerns - Hakuho did not declare that he was out until a few days before the tournament. And if that's the case, this clearly isn't a risking the career scenario. Hakuho has not completed 4 of the 6 tournaments in a year since 2016. 4 years ago. Whatever is up with him, it's been going on for years and does not seem likely to get any better. Does anyone see him completing all 6 tournaments in 2021 or 2022? I don't. The same applies to Kakuryu who only completed 4 whole tournaments once since 2016. If these guys had surgery and were out for long periods of time each run, it'd be a lot more understandable. It's just they have these injuries that they aren't getting surgery for or taking long recoveries for and it seems more like its just wear and tear or old age.
Should Basho Be Taken From Kyushu?
in Honbasho Talk
While I do think they should try to give a basho to other cities in Japan, there's a lot of benefits to keeping the basho in Fukuoka. It spears awareness. It reaches local fans there and it's important for getting future recruits from Fukuoka.