rzombie1988

I have no doubt that like a Tim Duncan could return for one night or a small stretch of games and do very well. I have a lot of doubts on whether he could do that for 82 games. I think that Hakuho can win one basho after many months off, but I'm doubting whether he can do that if he had to wrestle every match. Now the problem here is that while anyone under Ozeki has to not only wrestle but do well in 65-90 matches each year. Kakuryu only had to wrestle 16 times this year and Hakuho only had to wrestle 32 times this year. It's a major advantage to only have to wrestle a 1/5th to 1/2 of the matches other people do. It's a lot less wear and tear and it's a lot less chances for injuries. It sucks for the fans who don't get to see the top ranked wrestlers wrestle. It sucks for the promoters who have to convince people to buy tickets and sponsorships for an event where the two most important people might not even show up. It sucks for the wrestlers who can't get kinboshi, can't make the headlines for grabbing a big win over a Yok and can't get better by wrestling against better talent.

There was nobody stopping Aoiyama and Gagamaru from dropping some weight except themselves. When your career is affected by your weight, I think it is something you should take a little more seriously. 16 of 33 current Maegashira have reached Komosubi not counting the 9 current K/S/O/Y ranks. That's almost half of all Maegashira. If you have a good basho around the M4 level, there's a good chance you will get to Komosubi. Getting to Komosubi and staying at Komosubi are two very different things. Gaga had 1 tournament at that rank. Aoiyama hit the rank 3 times, but each time he only lasted a single tournament.

Yes, that sums up most of my sentiments, though it is totally possible to do 9-12 wins and not advance past Ozeki. And I totally get why someone like late career Kaio or Koto wouldn't leave once they start declining. It's hard to pass up all that cash and maybe they really just enjoy what they do.

I wouldn't have thought less of Kisenosato if he never made Yokozuna for instance. I would have thought less of him if he never won a title though. Baruto was fine, Terunofuji, Kaio before he hung around too long, Konishiki before he got too fat are just some examples.

I want to see Ozeki who can get into title races and maybe even win sometimes. I don't like Ozeki who just kind of hang on for years without much else going on. And Kotoshogiku had many really embarrassing losses where he would get henka'd and take action movie style falls, which doesn't bring a lot of prestige to the rank. I get why Ozeki hang around when their time is almost up - paychecks are nice, just it doesn't entertain me very much. I'd rather remember the Konishiki who was a freaking force, not the Konishiki that got too heavy and got embarrassed by people he was better than.

What facts am I missing here? Kotoshogiku was able to get 8-9 wins for a long time...just that's it. He was rarely ever the best Ozeki on the banzuke and he was rarely ever able to be in the mix for a possible title. Some people really appreciate that, I don't. This was not labeled as a Kotoshogiku lovefest only thread. If you had labelled it as such, I would not be in this thread.

Yes we did and I still feel the same way. If I'm Kagayaki, I'd prefer to have Hakuho's 23 matches this year or Kakuryu's 13 matches this year over the 65 matches he had. That's up to 52 extra chances of getting injured plus all the fatigue and wear and tear that comes with a sumo match. That's a major advantage. And as a fan, I want to see the Yokozuna competing in every tournament. In my ideal world, there would be match completion requirements per 2 years for Yokozuna(we'll just stick with Yokozuna for this topic). Obviously, it's not reality, but it's something I would like to see. Hopefully the JSA/YDC forces their hand.

I believe both Hakuho and Kakuryu should wrestle or step down. It is just too much of an advantage to be able to take months off and heal up while others have to wrestle six 15 match tournaments a year and get punished hard if they get injured doing it. I believe Shaq could maybe come back for one night and have a 20 point game if he trained hard for it. But I don't believe he would be able to hold up for a full season. I believe the same with Kakuryu and Hakuho. ---- And unless we are extending the Yokozuna process again, Takakeisho should get the rope as he hit the same requirements Kakuryu and Kisenosato did, though obviously there's reasons to be concerned due to his lesser early year.

I'm not really disagreeing that really good Ozeki often become Yokozuna. It's not a guarantee though. Kise went 10/10/10/10/10/13/11/11/13 and had a 2 year run from Jan '15 to Jan '17 where his two weakest bashos were at 9 wins. He eventually did make it, but as we talked about elsewhere in this thread, one bad fall and it's all over. Some people here prioritize being able to get 8-9 wins for years on end and others like me would rather someone have a good year or two where they go big but then burn out for other reasons. That's a difference of opinion. I've already listed Ozeki I didn't really like that much in this thread like Goeido, Kotooshu, Kotoshogiku and the end of Kaio and Chiyotaikai.

You and Seiyashi have done very little but harass me in this thread, with the latter taking it over to another thread now. If you don't agree with my take, that's fine. Make your point, argue your side and if all else fails, you can just stop replying. But don't you dare harass me, call me names, accuse me of things or try to bully me into changing my opinion.

Aoiyama is 6'3 and over 400lbs. Nobody should be able to move him, yet he has gone makekoshi in 8 of his last 12 basho's and has 28 makekoshi's to his name. Atleast with an Enho or an Ura, you can blame their results on size. But there's just no excuse for a guy not to do well who almost always has the height, weight and reach advantage. I also rarely see Aoiyama try to do anything but win matches through force or size. There's over 50 some ways to win matches, yet I only see him stick with 3 or so. Are you seriously going to tell me that you see Aoiyama give 110% effort night in and night out and do everything he can to win?

Don't count Takayasu or Terunofuji yet since their careers are still ongoing. I don't see Tochinoshin hitting Ozeki again but Takayasu, maybe. I'm just not super impressed or intrigued by Kotoshogiku getting 8-9 wins for few years yet rarely being a threat or a contender. Some people here clearly value that more than I do. Longevity is as much part luck as it is training or skill. I'd rather be the Baruto who had a higher ceiling that collapsed due to injuries than Kotoshogiku who was around a long time but was never in the mix. The best Ozeki usually do become Yokozuna. But average or below average Ozeki can stay Ozeki longer than they should due to the double/triple chance rule they have,

Enho's too small. He has to work twice as hard as others do and in the end, he's probably just going to get injured when Aoiyama lands on him. We've seen the same thing happen with people like Ura, Ishiura and Takanoyama. Great wrestlers, but there's only so much they can do. It's a shame but size really matters in sumo.

Just some thoughts: Overall, this was not a strong basho talent wise. Both Yok's were out and two of three Ozeki were out. If there are diamonds in the rough out there, this was the tournament to shine in. Hakuho and Kakuryu shouldn't be allowed to miss any more tournaments. It's been too many and it's too much of an advantage to get these long vacations while everyone else beats each other up. I'm actually a little disappointed with Terunofuji's run. He was getting these numbers with stronger fields and really should won this. You can tell his balance is not that great right now and he is a lot more beatable than he used to be. After all this time, I doubt whether that's going to get any better. Big credit to Takakeisho for possibly getting a Yokozuna run out of this. If there was ever a basho to show up, this was it. His November-July numbers were not Yokozuna level though and if those return, he's going to regret this promotion. I like is confidence and attitude, but I don't think he really is better than Terunofuji. Asanoyama got unlucky with the injuries. This was a bad tournament to miss for someone like him. Takayasu and Mitakeumi had really disappointing tournaments and maybe in another timeline, Takayasu is where Takakeisho is right now. "Whatever happened to Takayasu?" feels like a possible headline soon.

Again, for the 3rd or 4th time, I'm just not a fan of Ozeki hanging on with 8-9 win bashos. I just don't think it's impressive to be able to lose 6-7 times and still keep your rank. I think that's a lot of losing for the 2nd best rank in sumo Kaio had a really good run for a while and should have been made Yokozuna twice, and would be by today's standards, Then he made the rank look bad by hanging on for 5 years when he shouldn't of. 5 Titles, 6 JY's as an Ozeki. Great Ozeki up until 2005. Chioyotaikai shouldn't have been able to keep his rank from 2008 on. 2 titles though and 7JY's as an Ozeki. Takanonami has a really weird history of results, with nice highpoints mixed with some random bad basho in between. He was better though that Kotoshogiku, and during a much harder time period. 2 Yushos, 7 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki. Kirishima's record fit his demotion/promotion status. 1 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either. Hokutenyu should have been demoted in 1986, but his 1988-1990 campaign was good. 1 title at Sekiwake, 1 title at Ozeki, 2 Jun-Yusho as an Ozeki. Not a strong Ozeki either. Konishiki was dropped a few months late. 3 Yusho, 4 JY's as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki. Tochiazuma should have been dropped from 2002-2003 and in 2004 after his title win. He retired in-time. 3 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki. A good Ozeki. Kotoshogiku should have been dropped in 2015 and should have been dropped in 2016. 1 Yusho, 1 JY as an Ozeki.

He'll have the numbers for Ozeki. Just really depends on how hard they are going to be on his rank levels in a possible Ozeki and Yokozuna run. The system just punishes legitimate injuries hard, and I'd like to see some kind of adjustment so it doesn't do that anymore. Maybe some kind of set-up where if you are a Tochinoshin or a Terunofuji type, you can take one long period of time off straight without breaks and without pay, but when you do come back, there is no leniency.

So even though I don't agree with people getting the Yokozuna title without two straight wins, it appears Takakeisho should be the next Yokozuna under Kakuryu and Kisenosato standards. Remember when Kakuryu got the rope? He won the tournament then the next one after, he lost a playoff to Hakuho? Well, it seems like Terunofuji would be in the position if he wins the next one, unless they try to punish him for his lesser rank.

As I said, I'm not very impressed with only grabbing 8 or 9 wins and that's because you could theoretically lose to every other Yokozuna/Ozeki and someone else and still get the KK.

Terunofuji won 2 titles. Simple as that. I'd rather have Terunofuji's two titles than Kotoshogiku's longevity. Terunofuji is also still active with many years left. I explained my thoughts on longevity earlier. There's some skill for sure, but there's only so much you can do about injuries and just bad luck. It's just not a fair stat because things happen. I think win averages and win totals per year are better stats to work with in sumo. Win/loss totals vs various wrestlers is also likely a good stat.

To quote myself: "If we looked through Ozekis who never made Yokozuna - He was not better than Kaio, Chiyotaikai, Terunofuji, Takanonami, Kirishima, Hokutenyu, Konishiki or Tochiazuma. He was better than Kotooshu, Dejima, Miyabiyama, Asashio and Musoyama, who no one would say were great Ozeki. Baruto was better, but if you want to discount him due to his record, fine. Kotomitsuki was more competitive, just not as an Ozeki, strangely. " "Even Goeido was arguably better than him and Goeido was never really that impressive either." "He had one Jun-Yusho and one Yusho in 32 tournaments as an Ozeki. He only reached 33 wins in 3 tournaments once as an Ozeki and only hit 10 wins in 9 of 32 basho as an Ozeki." How can you claim he was a great ozeki when the only Ozeki he was really better than were bad Ozeki?

My mistake on that one, and yes they should have waited.

He didn't get Yokozuna until he won 2 titles straight, which everyone except Kakuryu had to do since Futahaguro. 8-9 win bashos as an Ozeki aren't that impressive to me. You figure, there's usually 2 Yokozuna and 4 Ozeki. That means you could lose to all of them and two others and still get your KK. That's not impressive. Ranks don't mean anything if the requirements to get them or stay in them are low. And I'm in full favor of needing ___ wins in 2 years to stay at both Ozeki and Yokozuna ranks.

Quality, not quantity for me. Yes, it's easier to lose than to win. No arguments there. Let's talk about Kisenosato. He had 12 JY's, and won 10 matches or more in 24 of 31 basho's as an Ozeki. That's what I'm looking for in Ozeki. In the same timeframe, Giku had 1 JY and only had 10 wins in 9 of 32 times.

I'm sure you can find a few of his 32 basho's as an Ozeki where if x or y had happened, he might have gotten a JY or a Yusho. But I'm sure I can say the same thing for other Ozeki at a higher frequency, hence me saying he was just not that good of an Ozeki.

Kisenosato had 2 titles and 12 JY's. Kakuryu grabbed 6 titles and 8 JY's. Harumafuji had 9 titles and 8 JY's. Terunofuji already has 2 titles and 4 JY's. These guys figured it out when Kotoshogiku couldn't. Just as someone had to win the tournament, someone had to come in second place too and as we proved above, Koto could only manage that once. And I have a feeling that if we went through to see how many times he would have finished third, the numbers wouldn't be much better. He was just not a great Ozeki.