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Posts posted by Swami

  1. 4 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

    Chris Gould is having a field day on YT rambling against Nishikijima, the "complicit" media, the NSK, and the "broken system" that brought Asanoyama down

    I agree, while it is true that Nishikijima, Takasago, members of the media can be apportioned a fair bit of blame, the bottom line is Asanoyama, like every one of us, is reponsible for his own actions.  Given he lied before he eventually came clean about what happened, somehow portraying Asanoyama as a victim simply doesn't wash.  

    Given the timescale of the ban, and time involved in potentially returning to makunouchi, it will take at least two years before he returns to anywhere near his current rank.

    And surely there is a need to send a serious message to all others who would contemplate similar breaches of COVID regulations.



  2. 57 minutes ago, Seiyashi said:

    This is the bit I'm curious about: technically he's submitted his papers but Hakkaku is holding on to them, so his immediate desire to retire won't be honoured by the NSK. I presume they will continue blocking his retirement for at least the duration of his suspension, but will they really allow him to quit the moment that's up, or does he have to do a few token basho (or just drop off the banzuke altogether) before officially calling it quits?

    My understanding was that they were holding onto the retirement papers in the event of another faux pas, in which case Asanoyama's hand would be forced.



  3. 6 hours ago, ryafuji said:

    Yup, and that's why I thought he was toast. He can count himself rather fortunate to still have a chance at a comeback. At his age he should be able to clean up in the lower divisions and at least make it back to makuuchi. 

    Yes, I did think he would quit rather than endure such a tough punishment, though he did attempt to submit retirement papers back in May, apparently Hakkaku has kept them in the event of another faux pas.

    When you add up the time it will take for him to return just to makunouchi, counting the six basho ban, that will be at least 18 months away, by which time he may be passing his prime.7

    Sad all around.



  4. Perhaps 6 to 7 tops, I know all seems to be going well now, but he is still walking a tightrope - the next bad injury may well be curtains for his career.  It was unfortunate that the last four years being ravaged by injury robbed Terunofuji of being at his peak.


    • Like 1

  5. On 09/06/2021 at 01:49, Kaminariyuki said:

    Predicting the future is such a rough game...


    Indeed, when I suggested that, I certainly didn't foresee Asanoyama's current difficulties which will well and truly derail his bid for yokozuna.


    • Like 1

  6. J

    3 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    Out of reacts for now; thanks for the replies. But was Mienoumi rejected by the board themselves, or was it more a case of his shisho just refusing to let him quit like Terunofuji's case?

    I assume this referred to mid-1977 where he was kadoban twice after putting up a string of mediocre KKs post-return from ozekiwake.

    Just checked January 1981 issue of Sumo World (article re Mienoumi's retirement), Mienoumi did indeed ask his oyakata to allow him to retire but Dewanoumi Oyakata (ex-Sadanoyama) first consulted Kasugano Rijicho (ex-Tochinishiki) who said to give him another chance.  Next time out Mienoumi got 10 wins.


    • Like 1

  7. 13 hours ago, Gospodin said:

    In the context of committing an infraction, I don´t know for sure, but I am quite certain there were other instances. As for other reasons, there were several, e.g. Onokuni being declined after going makekoshi as Yokozuna, while competing the full fifteen days.

    Mienoumi also offered to retire when he was in danger of falling from ozeki for a second time, was talked out of it, and ended up steadying the ship, and making yokozuna into the bargain!



  8. 9 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

    I think some lines have crossed here. Kintamayama is probably referring to promoting Terunofuji after yushoing this basho, and he says that cannot happen, which is in line with sumo orthodoxy. Swami is saying that Terunofuji needs 3 basho as ozeki before promotion, which a few others are disagreeing with.

    Your listed scenario of double yushos as an ozeki now and in July will, I think, result in his promotion as long as his yusho isn't a 11-4 howler or something like that: 13-2 will be enough I think. But no yokozuna on the banzuke will not save a meh promotion run; sumo has survived a period of no yokozuna before and it will again.

    The three-basho thing, whilst no longer about numbers, would be more about seeing a consistent level of performance.  If Terunofuji wins this time and in Nagoya, at the end of the day it is the Kyokai (with the YDC's recommendation) who will make the call.  Beating Hakuho may not be a factor if he, Hakuho, doesn't survive the first week at Nagoya. The worrying thing is if Terunofuji doesn't get promoted - which if he does, is really only going to be for a short time - where is the next yokozuna?  Before his woe this time, Asanoyama seemed to have hit a plateau, Shodai hasn't shown much and Takakeisho, in my mind, would be a disaster if he made yokozuna.  

    Given Terunofuji's knees, he'll do well if he lasts another couple of years, though it would be a great story if he makes it.  He certainly has potential to win several more yusho.



  9. 1 hour ago, Amamaniac said:


    You are not the only one speculating on an exceptional Yokozuna promotion for Terunofuji.  Several of my Japanese friends share that view, which makes me suspect that the Japanese media is floating that remote possibility.  

    While I do feel that such a promotion would be extremely unlikely (virtually impossible) given the two consecutive yusho (or equivalent) as an Ozeki prerequisite, Terunofuji's case is indeed something we've never really seen before.  

    The Forum is a place for sharing views, not for putting people down.

    Thanks for that!  It will put the YDC and the Kyokai in an unprecedented position if he finishes with 14-1 this time, although I think it is more likely chat for promotion would be more serious if was to win the yusho again (assuming Terunofuji wins this time) in July.  But strictly speaking a three-basho run would mean September would be the expected target under normal circumstances, though clearly Terunofuji's comeback is a unique situation.



    • Like 1

  10. 43 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

    Three-basho totals haven't been particularly relevant to yokozuna promotions in decades. Your posts really do make me wonder frequently if you intentionally decided to stop learning anything about sumo after the 1980s ended.

    I agree the three-basho totals is far from being the be-all and end-all. After all Wakanohana II and Onokuni both scored 40 wins over the three basho and didn't exactly have stellar careers. Plus the case of Wakanohana III highlights another point.  Winning back-to-back yusho to get promoted doesn't guarantee a successful stay as yokozuna even though that has been the de facto criteria for promtion since Futahaguro's exit. But from the point of view of gauging consistent performance, surely a three-basho spell is a better barometer, wouldn't you say, rather than just two?

    I don't think my comment merited that response but whatever.





    • Like 3

  11. 1 minute ago, Seiyashi said:

    Or if he beats a relatively genki Hakuho. Hakuho is really the last frontier as far as on-dohyo performance goes. If Terunofuji wins out here, and beats Hakuho and lifts the cup next basho with at least a 13-2, he's golden. If they need even more of an excuse to beat a 14-1Y 13-2Y with a yokozuna scalp, they're never going to get it.

    He might have been scared off after a near-mortal encounter with Mitakeumi about two years ago which led to his pectoral injury. He tried yotsu there, and for someone who hasn't shown any competency with it, managed to win by sukuinage, but injured himself in the process, and the playoff with Mitakeumi only made things worse. I wonder whether there's something in it that oshi and yotsu wrestlers have different muscular builds and his trying yotsu with the "wrong build" was what led to injury.

    I still think he's too short, and remains prone to slap-downs.  Akinoshima though was short and was very much a yotsu-zumo man, although in many ways his greatest flaw was his tendency to lose to guys much lower-ranked, having done all the hard work by beating so many top-rankers.  


    • Like 1

  12. 4 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

    I think what Jakusotsu was getting at is that failing to rise back is just not a relevant scenario. Even if a year-long suspension erodes his skills to, say, average maegashira level, he'll still cruise back to sekitoridom with ease as long as he's the least bit motivated to do so.

    I do agree with Atenzan in any case; a suspension of that length would be extremely unusual for the Kyokai to set.

    Having set the bar of 3 tournaments for Abi, they can't do any less for Asanoyama given his rank and expected standards of behaviour/conduct.  I still think being asked to retire may be the most likely option.

    Likewise, for Takasago, they could potentially dismiss him, and all the heya's rikishi go to Hakkaku or other stables in the ichimon, though that would be a major punishment given how historic Takasago Beya has been.



  13. Takakeisho needs to badly work on his yotsu-zumo if there is any chance of him making yokozuna, if his pushing attacks fail he has nothing to fall back on. The likes of Hokutoumi and Akebono developed sufficient yotsu-zumo, so far I haven't seen much sign of Takakeisho doing likewise.  

    In terms of promotion for Terunofuji, bearing in mind this is first basho back as ozeki, I can't see him being considered for promotion until September (if you consider the three-basho totals).  Then again, Terunofuji's situation is truly unique.  Futabayama and Terukuni were the only rikishi to be promoted to yokozuna after only two basho as ozeki.

    Perhaps if Terunofuji went zensho in July, he might have a chance.



    • Confused 1

  14. 1 hour ago, robnplunder said:

    I prefer 3 basho suspension which is what Abi ended up with. Intai or 6 basho suspension seems to be a bit too harsh.


    But clearly as an ozeki he is expected to be setting a good example, therefore one would reckon the punishment will be more severe.



    • Like 2

  15. 1 hour ago, Kintamayama said:

    There is no way in the world for Asanoyama to retire and remain in the kyokai in any capacity, and of course he can't become an oyakata. I don't get why this is even put forth as a possibility. 


    I only raised this suggestion because yokozuna Maedayama was forced to retire in 1949 after dropping out of a tournament claiming illness, only to be subsequently photographed at a baseball game. He did get to remain as an oyakata.  Very different situations of course.  Plus the other notable examples are of course Wajima and Futahaguro - Wajima for putting his toshiyori stock up as collateral for loans, and Futahaguro for unacceptable behaviour to his tsukebito and heya personnel.  

    In fairness to the Kyokai, so many of their rules and customs are centuries old and would never have factored COVID breaches into the mix.  At the same time they have to be seen to be doing something about.  Given the recent scandals involving foreign rikishi over the last decade and a half, they can't very well brush this case under the carpet.



  16. Plus the fate of Takasago Oyakata will no doubt be discussed.  At the very least he is certain to face some kind of demotion from his present rank in the Kyokai.

    Hard one to call though in terms of Asanoyama - if they use Abi's case as a precedent (and also Osunaarashi in terms of not coming clean), given his rank and the expectations of his conduct, I think he'll be asked to retire.  But will that be retire 100% - ie can't become an oyakata, presumably he hasn't kabu at this stage anyway - or just retire immediately from active competition?

    If they give him the same ban as Abi, he may consider himself to have gotten off lightly.



  17. Terunofuji did very well today, especially considering his head-to-head against Onosho.  The loss yesterday was especially unfortunate since he has now beaten his major nemeses (Takayasu and Onosho) this time.

    I suspect the Asanoyama aftermath may overshadow the last few days of action.


  18. I hope Terunofuji can regroup from this, it looked to me as though he momentarily went off-balance and was trying to correct his balance, and had ample opportunity to execute the throw by leaning down on Myogiryu's shoulder/back.  But I agree that all hair-pulls, accidental or otherwise, have to be treated consistently.  You can't allow it one day and forbid it the next.



  19. 2 minutes ago, Koorifuu said:

    For reference, 3 basho out would likely leave him in mid/upper juryo.

    1) kadoban fail

    2) 0 wins at ozekiwake

    3) 0 wins at lower maegashira

    With competition so fluid at the moment, if that situation does indeed materialize, he could potentially be back in sanyaku inside a year if all goes well.  If anything good can come of this, it may perhaps spur him to greater levels since his ozeki promotion, where he does seem to have plateaued somewhat.  

    But as others have said, potential punishment could be much worse, depending on further confirmation over the next day, I guess.  Had he admitted to the breach straightaway, he might have been afforded a bit of slack.  Surely his oyakata will also be in trouble, perhaps facing some kind of demotion etc?






    • Like 1