krindel

Inactive Members
  • Content Count

    1,047
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    4

Posts posted by krindel


  1. I have a great respect for people who have given so much of themselves to sumo without the perks of ever being a sekitori or an oyakata. Many of those are really what the cliché calls "unsung heroes", and I am really sad to hear that one of them has passed before his time. May he rest in peace.

    (Bow...)


  2. I'm trying to understand what your point is.

    i don't think it is difficult-

    setting up straw men to accuse of imaginary conspiracy theories doesn't hide that yaocho and mukiryoku are meaningful topics,

    this practice hurts the community; we are all better served to stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks

    i don't know how to make it more simple, and wonder if your asserted confusion is not pretended

    putting words in others' mouths is not a friendly exercise

    the words you've just attempted to attribute to me have nothing to do with me; please take responsibility for your own ideas and speak for yourself

    Despite what you may believe, this thread is not about your views but about Mike Wesseman's. Sumo Talk has repeatedly supported those theories (including in the podcast that is the original topic of this thread), hence they are far from imaginary. That means that people are not "inventing straw men", but arguing against a twisted view of sumo that has been repeatedly supported and maintained through countless years and endless failed predictions on the part of its supporters.

    As far as your views are concerned, since you claim that you are being misunderstood, I would appreciate it if you actually say exactly what you believe. You have mentioned in another thread that ST is "everything you need to know about sumo", and in this thread that the podcast in question is "open coverage of how contemporary sumo really works, especially the changing role of yaocho in recent years", and that the last basho was "not a basho, and Kotoshogiku 'won'". Should I not infer by those comments that you subscribe to Mike's theories?

    However, so as to avoid people "putting words in your mouth", feel free to let us know what exactly is your take on Mike's theories. Unless you do, and provide a concise summary of what your take on the matter is, I don't think there's any point of maintaining a discussion when all you are willing to contribute is an endless list of pseudo-intellectual cryptic comments.

    • Like 3

  3. this challenge is not only for kuroyama

    these questions are for anyone with a belief in the basho that was not a basho, where kotoshogiku 'won'

    what shall we expect from mighty kotoshogiku, now that he has surpassed himself more than any other athlete?

    who can we find to compare to this fantastic figure?

    Well, there are three possibilities. On the first, he fails to win the Yusho, proving that there is a conspiracy that gifted him his Yusho. On the second, he wins the Yusho, gets promoted to Yokozuna, proving that there is a conspiracy to produce a Japanese Yokozuna. On the third, he doesn't compete or withdraws from the tournament, proving that there is a conspiracy to cover up the conspiracy that gifted him the Yusho. Simple, isn't it?

    However, for people here who are interested in facts, here is an attempt to predict what Kotoshogiku is likely to do next basho, based on statistics alone:

    Since the 15-day basho era begun, I found 56 Ozeki who won a Yusho without having won the one before (i.e I didn't count the second of back-to-back Yusho). Out of those:

    1) The average number of wins for the next basho was a little under 10 (9.98 to be exact). That even includes the people who actually won the next basho.

    2) The average number of wins for the next basho for the 20 Ozeki who hadn't won a yusho before is much lower, at 9.2

    3) More than 50% of the Ozeki had 10 or less wins at the next basho.

    4) There were 12 cases of Ozeki that won a Yusho after having 8 or less wins on the basho before. Seven of them won 10 or less at the next basho. For two of them it was their first. Those two went 9-6 and 10-5 at the next basho.

    5) The back-to-back Yusho was won by 10 Ozeki.

    So, basically, that would suggest (purely on a rough evaluation of statistics), that one could predict that there is a chance of about 82% for Kotoshogiku NOT to win the yusho, and in fact he is statistically expected to manage 9 or 10 wins.

    • Like 6

  4. As I said before, no yusho (or ozeki/yokozuna promotion) can be pre-arranged. If Geek did not manage 10-0 by day-10 last basho, no one could give him a yusho. But after he exhibited a good winning streak, other elite rikishi would not stand in his way.

    Of course. It goes without saying that whenever a Japanese rikishi has a really hot start and is on the verge of winning the yusho, the other elite rikishi will not stop him.

    Oh wait...

    Well, I guess that the NSK or the Mongolian High Council just doesn't like Kisenosato and was waiting for rising star Kotoshogiku to manage the hot start. Or, the other favorite explanation (Tochiozan losing the playoff after Kisenosato lost a Yusho that was almost impossible to lose), "there was a plan but someone messed it up"...

    Then again, I guess if its a matter of faith, like it was mentioned before, arguing facts is rather pointless, isn't it?

    • Like 2

  5. Hakuho even gets top billing! In the US the cd would be billed as Kae featuring Hakuho.

    Or even Kae Vs. Hakuhou

    Haven't heard it, of course, but I am afraid there's a good possibility that it should be "Kae despite Hakuho"...


  6. Is it possible to search the DB for a banzuke based on the ranks of 2 or more rikishi?

    What I mean is for example: all basho in which Chiyonofuji was Y1e AND Asashio was O1e.

    I don't think it's possible to make a query like that, but I hope someone will prove me wrong.

    Voilà.

    Out of curiosity, I was wondering if that query is order-preserving? Would it have shown a theoretical basho where Asashio was Y1e and Chiyonofuji O1e?

    Edit: I think I answered my own question, I flipped the ranks and got the same results, so I assume the order is not important


  7. Not to mention the fact that a "flexible" cutoff line will still create just as many borderline situations, just on a different level. For example, if you have only one not-really-promotable rikishi, what do you do? Can't have an odd number of rikishi in makuuchi / juryo (I assume you'd keep that property in the flexible scheme). So, you'll end up with a dilemma of either overpromoting the rikishi in question, or reducing the size of Makuuchi and screwing over someone else who should have been promoted in his own right...

    The banzuke is not just "divisions", its a long long ranking of every rikishi in Ozumo, in which the first 42 rikishi are called "Makuuchi". So long as the ordering of the rikishi is fair, I don't mind if the 42nd rikishi is "not worth being there", so long as he is more "worth being there" based on the established rules than the rikishi directly behind him...

    My two cents on the matter is that I have no problem with some rikishi getting overpromoted from time to time, just as I have no problem with someone getting a bit of tough banzuke luck. After all, if it is all done in fairness, those things tend to even out in the long run. With the exception of the cream of the crop who go to the top, in a seesaw promotion system like the banzuke, everyone else tends to find their real level and bounce up and down around it. For some people, that means bouncing around from the jo'i to the mid maegashira. For some others, it means bouncing around between Juryo and Makuuchi. It really works in the long run (mostly), and don't think its easy to make it fairer, unless you do a major re-haul and start counting more than one basho result for the movements.


  8. (All that aside - I'd find it hard to declare it a "revolution" if the four-month interim rijicho simply doesn't get elected for a full term.)

    Well, you could describe Takanohana's entire oyakata career so far as a "revolution" in many ways... There's no doubt he stirred the pot in ways no one has before him (he founded the first new ichimon in ages for crying out loud). And if he does get elected, he'd be the youngest rijicho ever (by a wide margin as well, if you don't count Futabayama who is the only one to be even close).

    Sure, at this stage it doesn't sound like a huge revolution any more that people are supporting him for the position, but if you view it as a whole picture of events in the last decade, he does deserve the term.


  9. I can't help but think hes gonna get Hatatikomi'ed to death in the upper ranks fighting like that....

    Or simply flattened like a pancake... It is my impression that a lot of the techniques he is trying have a very very high injury potential if he tries to apply them to 160 Kg + sekitori...

    I really hope I am wrong though, cause its always nice to see any sort of "different" rikishi in the upper ranks.

    • Like 1

  10. Man, I didn't realise Kotoshigiku had such a high shiko. Now I want him to make Yokozuna just to see what his dohyo-iri would be like. If he didn't go Shiranui style, I'd be surprised.

    Given that his former shisho Kotozakura used the Shiranui style, I indeed agree that him going Unryu if he were to get the tsuna would be shocking.

    • Like 1

  11. It would of course be interesting to know where the Dewanoumi candidates got their extra 6 votes from. If it's all from one group, then only Tokitsukaze is possible - might they have made a wacky deal to support Kagamiyama (turns 58 in a couple of weeks, would only get 6 years) as a transitional rijicho? Defeating Izutsu for the vice-director position with a candidate of their own would go against that idea though, I guess.

    Even considering someone like Kagamiyama would be a huge shift in attitude though. There hasn't been a rijicho who wasn't at least a former Ozeki in ages.

    It's a bit of a weird situation, having the by far strongest ichimon reduced to the position of king-maker because they don't have any credible candidates of their own. You'd have to think their long-term view will be on regaining the rijicho position down the road, which might be easier if they support 52-year-old Hakkaku (who will at most serve for 12 years) than 43-year-old Takanohana...

    True enough, but I am thinking that a plan that involves preventing the extremely popular (and of proven competence) Takanohana from EVER making it to rijicho is more or less doomed to failure. They could go with the thought that if he becomes rijicho now, there might be a chance to topple him in the future, once he has made a few more enemies. But it is indeed a very interesting situation, and I, for one, am very curious to see how it all pans out.


  12. Directors

    Dewanoumi: Dewanoumi 9, Kasugano 9, Sakaigawa 9, Yamahibiki 10

    Isegahama: Isegahama 10, (Takashima 6)

    Nishonoseki: Nishonoseki 10, Oguruma 9

    Takanohana: Takanohana 9

    Takasago: Hakkaku 9

    Tokitsukaze: Kagamiyama 9

    Definitely looks like Isegahama's bid for rijicho has taken a serious blow, with him failing to elect a second riji from his ichimon... I do wonder who the Dewanoumi guys are supporting for the post though.


  13. Not really to be honest. Ōzeki is the second highest rank and should not be a revolving door. It should bring some additional benefits to the rikishi who manage to be promoted. And a "weak" Ōzeki can maintain his rank by going MK-KK-MK-KK for only so long. Eventually he will end up being demoted.

    Or retiring.

    In 2009 as an ozeki Kaio became the first rikishi to score 8-7 in all six basho in a calendar year. The Kyokai didn't say anything about it, and he just kept on chugging. Also, Chiyotaikai holds the record for most kadoban as ozeki at 14, while Kaio is just behind him at 13. Yet the Kyokai didn't say anything to make them fall out or retire, the fact is that ozeki are not going to be under as much pressure as Yokozuna when it comes to maintaining their rank. Really simple, get your KK, you get to stay. You're not worthy of Yokozuna, but you help to keep things interesting in the basho. As there is a such thing as "great" Yokozuna, there is also a such as thing as "great" Ozeki. They achieved lots of things as Ozeki, for which they are remembered for. If an Ozeki is doing great but then gets promoted to Yokozuna, his career might falter. We've seen that happen quite a bit with certain Yokozuna who had great performances as Ozeki but then when they started to bloom it turned to be their downfall as they couldn't handle that pressure to maintain the Yokozuna quality of sumo and performance.

    While I don't disagree with the general sentiment, and have no problem with Ozeki on the decline like Chiyotaikai or Kaio (or even Kotooshu) clinging to their rank (even including some respectful assistance from their friends from time to time), for me the big difference is that we are talking about rikishi with a long Ozeki-worthy career.

    If the Kyokai is planning to promote more Goeidos who never have achieved any sort of Ozeki worthiness before achieving the rank, and never rise up to the rank after getting it, then the heavy rank protection becomes a problem.

    • Like 1

  14. So do Hanakaze and Hokutoryu have the record for most basho competed?

    Aparently yes

    Also is Hanakaze the oldest active rikishi ever or have people competed past his age?

    In ancient history, there are several rikishi recorded as active at 50+ years of age.

    If you only count rikishi who retired after 1909, the oldest I could find was Ichinoya who fought his last bout at 46 years and 11 months in 2007. Hanakaze does appear to be second on the list though.

    And of course, it always amazes me to see that Kyokutenho ended up 11th on that list, even though he retired as a Makuuchi rikishi!