勝 Katsu

Please state wrestlers' shikona, rank at danpatsu-shiki and a brief explanation as to the reasons for your choice. (Example:) Futabayama-Yokozuna Futabayama Sadaji holds the record for zensho-yusho. (or something a little more personal such as:) Asashōryū Akinori- Yokozuna Asashoryu may not have held the record for zensho-yusho but his strength and determination make him the greatest sumo ever, in my opinion. (Please keep any arguments to anyones post in another category) Katsu

"Sometimes experts know so much about one thing...they haven't the faintest idea how it relates to everything else." J.Biafra

luvd this:

Ditto...but of course...it's a frog...wouldn't it be freezing to death? (Laughing...)

I am surprised that this forum has yet to have this discussion. I'm interested in Sumo, not just because of the hunky, hunky guys ;) but also because of the religious and spiritual aspects involved. Sumo itself is not separate from Shinto and I think that's an important fact to remember when dealing with "fan-ness" Let's disinclude the ideal of "sport as religion" for a moment. Let's also remove pre-historic/ancient referent such as ōllamaliztli (in the Mayan and Aztec cultures) as a game for the entertainment and sacrifice to the gods or the Egyptian hebSed Festival in which the rulers participation in the games was meant to appease the gods. Instead, let's just discuss modern sports and spirituality. Why? Well because there are very...very few sports in this age which include a truly spiritual element. Sumo is one of those (The only other sports I could find (other than martial arts in general) that would compare are Varzesh-e Bastani and Malla-yuddha (Interesting side note; both of these are also forms of wrestling....things that make you go hmmm) The first Sumo match which was written about was of course, the match between Amaterasu-no-kami and her brother. This indicates an inseperable link between Shinto and Sumo. As you may or may not be aware, Amaterasu is the Great Sun Goddess and Supreme Deity of the Shinto pantheon. The next, of course, was the famous match between the gods Takemikazuchi and Takeminakata The earliest recorded human match was: "The Nihon Shoki records that in the seventh month of 642, on the occasion of the visit to Japan of the envoy of the Korean Kingdom of Paekche, "strongman wrestling" (chikarahito no sumō) was held in the presence of Prince Gyōki of Paekche, who was already in Japan at the time." Most of us should be aware that Sumo is also practiced at various shrines, during different holy festivals such as: chōyō no sekku at Kamowakeikazuchi Jinja "Karasu sumō" to honor Yatakarasu "The number of shrines that incorporate sacred sumō (shiyūhaira) as part of their rituals — such the kamisumō match held at the end of Suwa Taisha Shrine's ofune matsuri (boat festival) or the match between the kami at Okidōsen Mita Hachimangū Shrine's dengakusai — are too numerous to mention." karatoyama sumō at Hakui Jinja zuiki matsuri at Mikami Jinja and Urate shinji at Tamanoya Jinja to name a few. :) Japan also has a tradition of having Sumo walk through neighborhoods throwing beans at houses to scare away demons. This and other rituals performed by the wrestlers makes them not just sportsmen...but priests. For those of you who, when someone says "priest", instantly think of a guy in black with a collar, keep in mind that in pre-monotheist cultures there were (are) a wide variety of priesthoods ranging from "the priest that recites the prayers" to "the priest who takes care of the gardening" all of which had (have) priesthood status, but perform separate functions. I don't think that anyone in modern Japan would consider rikishi priests but I'm putting forth a different way of looking at Sumo. The shiyūhaira was literally the first type of Sumo and I feel very strongly about the concept that while the gishiki performed prior to the matches are important (and priestly duties), the match itself is also a ritual act and should be considered a priestly function as well. Check out the entry on Sumo at the Shinto encyclopedia!!

Ofune matsuri Boat Festival. A festival on May fourth and fifth held at Susuki Miya in Matsumoto, Nagano Prefecture. Participants from the nine villages of the former Satoyama area bring out nine ofune made of boat-shaped wooden frames from which cloth is draped. Pulling the boats decorated with warrior figures, they process to the accompaniment of cheerers (ohayashi). Within the precincts of the shrine (keidai), the nine ofune boats receive oharai (see shubatsu) purification from the priests (shinshoku). There are several traditions of ofune festivals in the Azumi region of Nagano Prefecture. At Hotaka Jinja in Hotaka Township, Azumi-gun, the reisai (main annual festival) is also commonly referred to as an ofune festival. Participants pull five large and small roof-covered dashi (carts, floats), boat-shaped and decorated with human figures and plaited leaves and branches of Cryptomeria trees. There are festivals for the transference of kami at Harumiya (spring shrine) and Akimiya (autumn shrine) of the lower shrine (shimosha) of Suwa Taisha in Lower Suwa Township, Suwa–gun, Nagano Prefecture. On August first, the kami is transferred from Harumiya to Akimiya, while the transference from Akimiya to Harumiya is on February first. The August festival, which is called the ofune matsuri, is the grander of the two. A boat-shaped structure woven with brushwood, wrapped in cloth and carrying two life-sized human figures of an old man and woman is pulled by several thousand Suwa ujiko (parishioners) from Harumiya to Akimiya. A procession of the kami object proceeds to Akimiya along a separate sacred path. When the ofune reaches Akimiya, the brushwood boat is broken up, the figures of the old man and woman are placed upright next to a Sumō wrestling ring, and several bouts of Sumō are dedicated to the kami.

People will not treat what you dig up on the web as gospel, and the first-hand information provided by Orion and others is not "offensive interruption", but one of the main reasons why this forum is worth visiting. I'm not trying to have anyone take what I'm saying "as gospel". If a new member were to to read this entire thread, they would note that several members have already made theirr objections to this worldview. They have already stated numerous times that they disagree ....so noted....moving on.

Hikiai-mochi shinji Tug-of-War of the Mochi Rite. A rite at the Hachiman Shrine in Gose City, Nara Prefecture, held on the ninth day of the ninth month of the old lunar calendar. Six large round mochi are placed in straw bags called kogutsu. The kogutsu is tightly bound with cords then pulled along with a rope. The participants engage im a rite of tug-of-war over this. Finally, the mochi are removed from a hole in the kogutsu and the worshippers scramble for it. Preceeding this a member of the Kagimoto family, the founding family of the shrine and the overseer of the shrine (miyamori) act out forms of sumō wrestling. The mochi is said to be a charm for safe birth.

(Laughing...) (Laughing...) (Laughing...)

The problem is that your information is askew. It's Orion who's being informational -- or rather, gently corrective. When you contradict her, YOU are the one being argumentative. I guarantee she knows more about this than either you or many of the sources you're relying on -- or is more interested in being accurate, since she has no agenda to promote. Really? I'm quoting Jinja Honcho and the encyclopedia of Shinto (which is published by Kokugakuin University) and that's not good enough? I've got a lot of experience being neysaid because my theories (on some other topics) have no historical or scientific grounds...I have no reference material and often speak on things which seem completely out of the ballpark in terms of sanity, but I have to say, this is the first time anyone ever said boo to me when I have what is essentially the only available historical/scientific/whatever evidence or reference material... I call this the "sky is black" is theory of internet social structure. Regardless of whether I say the sky the blue...and everyone knows the sky is blue...there will be someone online to say the sky is black. I am offended by this interuption.

Sumo Giraffe:

I'm not denying that modern Sumo has these other aspects. I started this thread to focus specifically on the religious/spiritual ones. It's supposed to be primarily informational,, not argumentative, so people coming to the thread and saying boo are being kind of redundant.

While some of the posts in this thread have been only loosely tied to Spirituality and Sumo, I think anyone interested in the topic...and anyone who believes that Sumo is devoid of spirituality should take a moment to contemplate the Tsuna. The Jinja Honcho states "Let us look at Sumo wrestling, the world famous national pastime of Japan, for example. It originally was a ritual dedicated to Shinto deities. Surprised? Above the ring-455 centimeters in diameter-hangs a ceremonial canopy exactly in the same shape and design of a Shinto shrine roofing. A Yokozuna (Grand Champion) grandiosely enters the ring-wearing a "tsuna", a huge linen band, which is a derivative of Shinto's sacred border rope. And, from that "tsuna" hangs several "shide," sacred zig-zagged paper stripes. Yes, sumo started as an entertainment offered to deities of Shinto." and the Shinto Encyclopedia says: http://eos.kokugakui...php?entryID=317 and http://eos.kokugakui...php?entryID=316 Though the origin of certain costuming or my initial assertion that rikishi could be viewed as priests is certainly up for debate, the very specific symbol of the Tsuna and Shide is found nowhere else but within the context of Shinto. These two elements demark "something sacred" and, when applied to Yokozuna obviously indicates a spiritual role. Though Mark even spoke to some rikishi and their reaction was less than enthusiastic, I doubt anyone who has taken "Jhapaneez Culture 101" could deny the use of the Tsuna and Shide are Shinto in origin and remain, despite a modernized agnosticism within the culture itself, spiritual.

Of course they're competing, their professional success just isn't measured in wins and losses. hmmmm....you make a very....rational point.... :-P :-D

I didn't notice anything in the rules that forbids it, but these sort of discussions have been discouraged due to the tendency for things to get nasty. Forum rules are currently being examined and revised, and will hopefully be updated soon. One of those revisions is: Strongly discouraged actions: 2. Discussion of politics and religion that have no relevance to sumo. The forum is dedicated to our interest and love of sumo, and that shouldn't be clouded by heated and unresolvable discussions on those two heat-prone topics. Discussions that wander into religion and politics will be monitored and locked the moment discussion becomes anything less than polite and rational. All members are encouraged to let the moderators know if some topic seems precariously close to irrational discussion and flaming. Outright provocations and trolling on political and religious subjects will not be tolerated, and may end in banning. That is what we'll do here. Keep an eye on things, and shut it if and when necessary. Thanks much, apologies if the meme seemed inflamatory...for me it just drove home the point. Strange...I really wasn't trying to be pohlitikal.....how odd that it would perceived that way. No one was disagreeing or upset soooo...and for the love of Sumo...I feel that love of Jhapahn is not quite seperable...hence the topic; anyway, folks, is still "Do you think the royal family should reclaim its divine status as accorded in Shinto?" (I'm simply wondering...culturally speaking...whether or not the members feel this would be beneficial for Jhapahn) Earlier, another member mentioned that this is a non-issue. I read an article this morning that might just bring the question up again (damn the internet connection here...it's a lovely morning, I'm having coffee andd chatting about Jhapahn...suddenly the net Radio stops and I can't even get to yahoo....) Anyway,,the article is at REUTERS nooz. It's on a rising Jhapahneez nashunalizm. (Hahaa...which then makes this thread slightly more pohlitikhal...sorry...)

(In case you didn't know) 1 2 3 Well???

I wouldn't mind seeing Asa in a commentator role. That's kind of "how it's done" in the states...no problem. Prowrestling people are athletes, but they're not actually competing...that's the issue

True. I certainly wouldn't mind a single ruler/ Empress in Jhapan but I guess I'm asking the members to take the idea seriously as a matter of cultural survival. The issue for me is that Amherikha simply came in and said "you can't believe what you want to anymore" and that's something that shouldn't happen anywhere.

I wasn't aware that there even was such a thing "professional wrestling" in Japan, my thing is that, in the states, it's just a joke and the WWE (formerly the WWF...but the World Wildlife people said "hell No!") is full of the most ridiculous, pseudo-homo dramas (Note: South Park/ Season 13/Episode 10) and I wouldn't want to see Asashoryu anywhere near that situation.

I found this personally interesting as, again, there is a parallel in Ancient Egyptian belief: Ichirei shikon

I....don't know how to feel about that.... :-S

Would luv to see this at a Basho!

It's true. International copyright here is trainwreck...Brad Pitt sells ladies perfume, Mickey Mouse has his own line of vehicle enhancement items and the Michelin Man sits on dashboards next to Buddha.

Clearly, that's what they want you to think... (Laughing...) (Laughing...) (Laughing...)