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Everything posted by Jaak

  1. Jaak

    Old kimarite

    Where can information be found as to what the old kimarite were, and what has happened to them? Azukari - last happened 1951.09 between Y Azumafuji and O Yoshibayama. Seems to be formally abolished - if a match ends inconclusively, a torinaoshi follows. Dakidashi - last 1943.01? Dashinage - last 1966.11? Dohineri - last 1951.01? Fumikiri - last 1945.06? Fumikoshi - last 1954.03? Gyakuhineri - last 1937.05? Hakite - only time 1933.05? Haraidashi - only time 1951.09? Harayagura - only time 1938.05? Hatakiotoshi - last 1949.01? Hikitaoshi - only time 1949.01? Hikiwake - a type of draw. Last happened 1974.09 between M6 Futagodake and M10 Mienoumi. 7 occurrences between 1958 and 1967. Has it been abolished? Hineri - last 1938.01? Hineritaoshi - last 1927.05? Hisagomawashi - only time 1941.05? Itamiwake - a type of draw. 18 occurrences between 1927.01 and 1958.09, all in makuuchi and juryo - then no occurrences in 35 years - but then 3 occurrences between 1994.03 and 1999.01, all in 3 lower divisions (jonokuchi, jonidan, sandanme). Has it been abolished or not? Izumigawa - last 1928.10? Kakaenage - last 1952.05? Kakemotare - last 1950.01? Kaketaoshi - only time 1927.03? Karaminage - last 1953.05? Kerinage - only time 1957.03? Kimekatsugi - only time 1929.09? Kubihataki - last 1944.01? Mochidashi - last 1951.01? Morotehineri - last 1954.01? Motarekomi - last 1951.09? Nichogake - only time 1953.01? Nisokugake - only time 1937.01? Nodowa - only time 1951.01? Nukitasuki - only time 1948.10? Omatasukui - only time 1951.01? Oshihanashi - last 1937.05? Oshikiri - last 1953.03? Owatashi - last 1951.01? Sakatenage - only time 1927.01? Samagataeshi - only time 1953.09? Shitateyagura - last 1951.09? Sori - last 1931.01? Takamuso - last 1934.01? Tobichigai - last 1942.05? Tomoenage - the only time 1957.03? Tsukihanashi - last 1956.01? Tsukiyagura - only time 1938.01? Uchirohikimawashi - only time 1950.09? Uwateyagura - last 1954.09? Yagaranage - last 1940.05? Yasumi - a type of draw, last occurred in 1928.01? Yobikaeshi - last 1958.03? Yoridashi - last 1954.09? Zutsuki - only time 1939.05?
  2. Not unprecedented but awfully long ago. How about a table of comparable K2-NON-creations? Goeido 2011.01 M5e 11:4 Toyonoshima 2009.11 M5e 11:4 Homasho 2007.03 M5e 11:4 Mutsuarashi 1969.07 M5w 11:4 Dejima 2006.11 M3w 10:5 Kotoshogiku 2006.11 M2e 10:5 Hajimayama 1955.05 M3e 10:5 Did these 7 all end up at M1e? No, Dejima got M1w.
  3. Not unprecedented but awfully long ago. How about a table of comparable K2-NON-creations? Goeido 2011.01 M5e 11:4 Toyonoshima 2009.11 M5e 11:4 Homasho 2007.03 M5e 11:4 Mutsuarashi 1969.07 M5w 11:4 Dejima 2006.11 M3w 10:5 Kotoshogiku 2006.11 M2e 10:5 Hajimayama 1955.05 M3e 10:5
  4. Track record of K2 creations: Aminishiki 2006.09 M3w 11:4 Roho 2006.09 M1e 9:6 Takatoriki 2000.03 M14e 13:2Y Akinoshima 1999.01 M3e 11:4 Kaio 1999.01 M1e 9:6 Kotonishiki 1998.11 M12w 14:1Y Kotonowaka 1998.09 M2e 9:6 Tochiazuma 1997.05 M6e 11:4 On example of Tochiazuma, creating K2 for 11:4 result at M5w would not be unprecedented.
  5. If Goeido wins tomorrow he will definitely stay at Sekiwake because he cannot be demoted with a kachi koshi Can Goeido be still demoted with 8:7, if it´s just to West? Because S1w has 10:5 against that. Also, who should be komusubis? M1e 8:7 cannot be promoted anywhere else there is M3e 10:5 and M5w 11:4 but 2 demoted komusubi. So which of them is better komusubi, Aminishiki or Ikioi? And is the other really that impressive as to be entitled to haridashi?
  6. What has been the longest ever tomoe-sen, in any division? If a division has 2 equal members, they fight, the match normally produces a winner (last draw in a bout was in 1974 or so, and that was not a kettei-sen for a yusho), and the winner gets the yusho. If the division has 4 equal members, they are paired by lots, each pair fights and produces a winner, and the winners fight and produce a yusho winner. If there are 8 equal members then again they are paired by lots, and the outcome of a single bout narrows the choice to 4, then 2, then 1. If there are 7 equal members then 1 of the 7 gets to be among the 4 without fight, and then there are 4 left fighting as above. But if there are 3 equal members, then there is a tomoe-sen: it can be won if any of the 3 wins two successive bout... but if every bout winner goes on to lose the next bout then tomoe-sen can go on indefinitely. 5 or 6 or 9...12 members of a division would likewise reduce to a tomoe-sen. Now, there has never been more than 5 members of a playoff in makuuchi. But lower divisions have just 7 days to fight, and as many as 200+ fighters in a division (jonidan), so playoffs, incl. tomoe-sens, should be more common. So what was the longest tomoe-sen ever, in number of bouts between 3 equal competitors?
  7. Jaak

    Kakuryu as Yokozuna

    How does the manufacture of his sword go? I mean, hammering, folding, quenching, straightening, polishing, sharpening... after he got his 14th win and the right to tsuna on Sunday, how long do Japanese swordsmiths need till the sword is cooled, polished and fitted into the hilt and scabbard for the new yokozuna to wear and draw?
  8. Jaak

    Longest ever tomoe-sen

    Previous 18 basho, 2008...2010, makuuchi: 5 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens 24 basho, 2004...2007, makuuchi: 5 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens 24 basho, 2000...2003, makuuchi: 3 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens 18 basho, 1997...1999, makuuchi: 6 playoffs. 5 were simple kettei-sens, and Haru 1997 had 4 contestants, so resolved by kettei-sens. 24 basho, 1993...1996, makuuchi: 7 playoffs. 4 were simple kettei-sens, 3 tomoe-sens. Last makuuchi tomoe-sen was Kyushu 1996: 5 contestants reduced to tomoe-sen that resolved in 2 bouts. Haru 1994 tomoe-sen resolved in 3 bouts, and Nagoya 1993 tomoe-sen in 2 bouts.
  9. Jaak

    Longest ever tomoe-sen

    Thanks - that´s exactly what I was interested in. 7 bouts before the match was resolved. And a simple statistic for the general frequency of playoffs: Since 2011, in 19 basho makuuchi has had 3 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens juryo had 5 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens makushita had 2 playoffs, but both had exactly 8 contestants, so resolved by kettei-sens sandanme had 10 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens jonidan had 7 playoffs, of which Haru 2013, with 9 contestants, led to tomoe-sen which Kinunonami won in 2 bouts; the rest were simple kettei-sens jonokuchi had 4 playoffs, all simple kettei-sens. So, out of 114 yusho, 29 needed playoffs, only 3 had more than 2 contestants, and only 1 led to tomoe-sen, and that resolved in 2 bouts.
  10. Jaak

    Aki 13 Comments

    Futahaguro holds the distinction of being the only no yusho yokozuna. There is a fair bunch of yokozunas with a single yusho: Shiranui Nishinoumi II Nishinoumi III Musashiyama Maedayama Akinoumi Yoshibayama.
  11. Jaak

    Nagoya Basho 2013 discussion thread

    Harumafuji has given only 2 gold stars out of the possible 5, and his 4 remaining opponents are ozeki and yokozuna rank, so no danger of costing more gold stars this basho.
  12. Jaak

    Promotion/Demotion discussion Natsu 2013

    So, who are the Nagoya-basho 2013 sanyaku? Obvious S1e: M1e 11:4G Myogiryu One demotee entitled to stay in sanyaku: S1e 7:8 Goeido Thus two vacancies. And list of eligible promotees: M5e 8:7 Shohozan M5w 8:7 Takayasu M6w 9:6 Takekaze M8e 10:5 Tokitenku M10e 10:5 Chiyotairyu M11w 11:4 Gagamaru. What is the order of these promotees?
  13. Jaak

    Greatest Ozeki?

    There have been 331 yushos since 1958 - one each basho - and just 74 yusho-dotens. Would it be fair to accept all yusho-dotens as equivalent to yusho?
  14. Jaak

    Greatest Ozeki?

    What do you think are the most respectable, yusho-equivalent non-yusho performances?
  15. Jaak

    Foreign rikishi totals since WWII by country

    Taiwan is indeed a smallish isle, and exactly in Pacific Ocean.
  16. Jaak

    Greatest Ozeki?

    Let´s list the ozeki who have had at least 3 career yusho - who ought to have been promoted to yokozuna but for various reasons were not. Someone in this list is the greatest ozeki - and it is pretty obvious who. 1) Shakagatake - 3 yusho, ozeki 1770-1774 (before yokozuna was invented) 2) Raiden - 28 yusho from 1790 to 1810, and that was 2 yusho period. It would be equivalent to 84 yusho in 6 yusho period, and Hakuho has some way to go. He still might. Hakuho is still 28. At that age (1795), Raiden had collected 4 yusho while Hakuho is at 24 already. Between spring 1795 and autumn 1810, of the 30 basho, Raiden missed 6 and failed to win 2 basho. He retired in 1810, age 43, on a string of 9 consecutive yusho. So, Hakuho merely needs to win 60 yusho of the 90 basho of the next 15 years, and that would match Raiden. No rikishi ever came close. The second, a yokozuna, was Tanikaze with 21 career yusho of 2 per year. 3) Tamagaki. 4 yusho between 1812 and 1820, none consecutive. He may not count as ozeki, because he was appointed yokozuna - but refused the licence 4) Kashiwado. 16 yusho between 1812 and 1822. 4 consecutive yusho on three separate occasions. Like Tamagaki, appointed a yokozuna but refused licence. If counted as an ozeki, clearly the second best - 16 yusho of 2 is behind the 21 of yokozuna Tanikaze but ahead of the 12 of yokozuna Futabayama 5) Tsurugizan. 6 yusho between 1836 and 1842, including 2 consecutive on 2 separate occasions. Appointed a yokozuna but refused the licence. 6) Koyanagi. 5 yusho, ozeki 1852-1856 7) Odate. 4 yusho, ozeki 1886-1895 8) Miyagino. 3 yusho, ozeki 1897-1903 9) Araiwa Kamenosuke. 6 yusho between 1897 and 1905 10) Shimizugawa Motokichi. 2 yusho in 1932 (a 4 basho year) and a third in 1934 (2 basho year) - equivalent to 6 yusho in 6 basho times 11) Konishiki. 3 yusho 1989-1992 Note the long gap between 1934 and 1989. Over those 55 years, most of which were 6 basho time, every single ozeki who collected 3 career yusho got tsuna - and several who did not also got tsuna. 12) Chiyotaikai. 3 yusho 1999-2003 13) Kaio. 5 yusho 2000-2004 14) Tochiazuma. 3 yusho 2002-2006 So, that should be the complete list. Now the question - if you exclude Kashiwado on grounds that he was at least appointed a yokozuna (this also excludes Tsurugizan and Tamagaki) - who do you think was the second best ozeki ever? Koyanagi? Araiwa? Kaio?
  17. Jaak

    Haru Basho 2013 - Discussion Thread

    And Baruto defeated Goeido. What is odd, though, is that NO one except Hakuho managed to compete with Baruto. There were 10 undefeated makuuchis in the morning. Only 2 of them met each other. The other 8... Masunoyama, Wakanosato, Jokoryu, Okinoumi, Toyonoshima, Kakuryu, Harumafuji - all lost. 7 out of 8.
  18. Jaak


    Baruto was the last new ozeki to include single digit win basho in ozeki run, but far from the only. Out of the last 21 ozeki promotions, 6 included single digit win basho, and 2 had a 8:7 result - Musashimaru (8-13-12) and Akebono (13-8-13). And the previous such ozeki before Baruto was Hakuho (sic!) at 9-13-13.
  19. Jaak


    If he had won enough to start an ozeki run he would've been automatically promoted with the 10-win rule anyway. He was promoted on the first time after 9-12-14. 8-12-14 would sum up to 34 wins, too. Would that suffice for ozeki run?
  20. Jaak

    Hatsu Basho 2013 - Discussion Thread

    Could it be isamiashi? Then again, I suppose if Taka does touch then any hiwaza would be avoided....
  21. Jaak

    Kyushu Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

    The previous record was 4 consecutive, of 6:5 of Maedayama. Onokuni-s 8:7 had only 3 consecutive losses. Last yokozuna to suffer over 5 losses for 2 basho straight was Futahaguro (8:7-9:6). He did not intai, but rather went on to win 13:2J. Kitanofuji and Tochinoumi have both had over 5 losses for 3 consecutive basho. Kashiwado and Yoshibayama twice had a pair of conscutive basho with over 5 losses.
  22. Jaak

    Aki Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

    Sure - no Tokyo yusho were officially announced before 1909. What were the yokozuna promotion criteria before 1909? After the original pair - Tanikaze and Onogawa - in 1789, there were no yokozuna promotions till Onamatsu in 1828. Raiden was never offered tsuna, Kashiwado and Tamagaki refused. The yokozuna before official yusho, 1835...1904 were: Onamatsu 5 Inazuma 10 Shiranui Nagiemon 1 Hidenoyama 6 Unryu 7 Shiranui Mitsuemon 3 Kimenzan 7 Jinmaku 5 Sakaigawa 5 Umegatani I 9 Nishinoumi I 2 Konishiki Yasokichi 7 Ozutsu 2 Umegatani II 3 Hitachiyama 8 Over the same period, the more prominent ozeki were: Hiodoshi 2 Takekuma 2 Tsurugizan 6 Koyanagi 5 Iozan 2 Kumagatani 2 Sakaigawa 2 Tateyama 2 Odate 4 Ichinoya 2 Yahatayama 2 Otohira 2 Miyagino 3 Asashio 2 Kunimiyama 2 Araiwa 6 Since the concept of yusho did not then exist - what were the criteria to pick the bearers of tsuna and pass over the other above listed ozeki?
  23. Jaak

    Aki Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

    Not the sole. But the previous one was Araiwa. And before Araiwa... Odate, Koyanagi, Tsurugizan, Kashiwado, Tamagaki, Raiden. This should be all. (Note that Tsurugizan, Kashiwado and Tamagaki all were offered tsuna, but refused).
  24. Jaak

    Aki Basho 2012 Discussion Thread

    I didn't get it... can you (someone else) explain your table? I have read it as (the count of yusho as ozeki / the count of yusho as yokozuna) and + means active rikishi. The first is actually the count of all makuuchi yusho as not yokozuna - including yusho as ozeki, but also yusho as sanyaku or maegashira.