Kozaru

Yusho portraits are only for honbasho. Yes, I know. The point being that if they don't win something OTHER than this event, and SOON, they will no longer be represented in the rafters. So who was the moody knob? I'm dying to find out! ;-)

Holy crap. I have a policy to try to be civil to everybody here, so rather than respond to that last post (which could likely not be done in a civil manner), or defend my right to discuss sumo here, I'll vacate the thread. I will not be drawn into telling anybody off, like the militant wing. I hope that others will respect my right to like sumo for the reasons that I do and my right to not agree with their opinion. My opinions on what I like and don't like, are in fact irrefutable, by definition.

I admit I always considered you an inferior to super duper inferior fan and I think you should go back to your K1 or MM2 or whatever place you came from. Now, if I could only remember who you actually are.. Now, to the point-I am a hardcore fan, but do not fellate my entire life with one team, and I actually do not have nothing better to live for, so I guess I am der hardcore fan after all.. What? You're attempting to put fans into 2 categories based on a couple of examples. I know several BIG sumo fans, big enough to create websites and forums on the topic, who hate the henka and all non-forward-moving sumo. By your definition, they are casual. I hate henka, yes because it robs me as a paying fan of excitement, but don't mind backward-moving sumo. My comment about the sports fans and death was NOT directed at you or anybody else on this board. It was an observation about sports in the world which I thought we'd all agree with. As sumo fans, we have no 'team'. That should have been obvious. And if you are not one who would write a team's name on your tombstone, then it should have been obvious that I wasn't talking about you. I HATE K-1, boxing, MMA, UFC, and all other sports in which the object is to beat a guy unconscious or into surrender. I HATE hockey fights. How many serious over-generalisations are you willing to make about me and people like me (or more accurately, people not like you)? And you're telling me to leave? Is this for real? Thanks for your respect for my opinion and what attracts me to sumo. I appreciate it. Super-duper inferior. Ha! Point proven. Note my earlier post in which Nishi and I told each other that we respect each other's reasons for liking sumo. Why does it matter who I am? I don't know who you are. Did I miss the orientation party? Asashosakari must be buttering the popcorn now. I wouldn't have reacted so harshly if you hadn't told me to leave. There seems to be a lot of that going around. Too bad. I also had a feeling that this thread could not continue in the civil manner that Nishi and I began it in, because of the militant wing of Sumo Forum.

I'd like somebody to take a stab at my question. Why is it that the National Hockey League has no less than 4 annual trophies for leadership and human qualities, but sumo, despite all its talk and a well-defined system of material reward and recognition, has none? And why shouldn't they? What's wrong with a new award(s) for such qualities? I'm also half-expecting somebody to tell me that they do have such awards, and I'm just not aware of them.

So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport. I knew you wouldnt understand, honest. I meant a fanatic fan, a seriously devoted fan, ask those that want Henry dead, they may speak your language better than it. But I feel you already knowed that.. It's funny, because while I'm a big sumo fan, I fit into your description of a casual sumo fan. And while I understand the sportsmanship you described in your soccer example (qualifying me as a real fan, not finding the sportsmanship amusing), I don't watch soccer at all. So I can only conclude that your examples were over-generalisations. But this is why I wrote in a previous post that I think some people on the board consider me an 'inferior fan' (or second-rate) compared to them. Not that I think it's something to be super-proud of to be a hardcore fan of a sport. Some people define themselves in that way, affiliating their entire life with one team (reaching even into funerals and gravestones), and I find that so sad that people have nothing better to live for.

I agree with that! So a serious fan is one who wants to kill? I figured a serious fan might understand that it's a sport. Who is it?! Can I get some popcorn too? Oh....... What?! No! Sports have competition! Those guys (and gals) are actors, stuntmen. What?! No! Sports have to be athletic! For the less-informed or more-misguided of you, here is the perfect definition of sport: an athletic competition that has no points for style. Note that this excludes figure skating, half-pipe snowboarding, and pretty much half the events at the Olympics. As soon as you have points for style, you become an art. Real sports don't get judged on the competitors' costumes, how well the accompanying music matches their dance steps, or how cool something looked. Can you imagine a homerun being worth more if you smile pretty while you're hitting it?

What are the odds on Vince McMahon calling him?

So is that it for the Japanese? Once every 7 years they'll win this event, and that's all? Soon enough there won't be any Japanese yusho portraits left in the rafters. Nishi, who was the moody knob? I have 2 guesses, Kotooshu or Takamisakari. It was funny to watch Takami stare down Hakuho. That isn't quite an accurate choice of words, but I can't think of another way to describe it. Hakuho was laughing when he turned around, and Kisenosato was having a chuckle sitting next to the ring.

When was the last time YOU saw someone win "priest of the year" or get a "best robes in mass" award? Obviously the non-sport element is not competitive. How could you even think that was an arguement? Actually, I was very serious. The National Hockey League in the US and Canada has at least 4 trophies awarded annually for leadership, sportsmanship, community contribution and dedication. The fact that sumo does not have such awards (they don't, do they?) is very interesting, considering all the talk about how important it is. Lady Byng Memorial Trophy: for the player adjudged to have exhibited the best type of sportsmanship and gentlemanly conduct combined with a high standard of playing ability. Bill Masterson Memorial Trophy: for the player who best exemplifies the qualities of perseverance, sportsmanship, and dedication to ice hockey. King Clancy Memorial Trophy: for the player who best exemplifies leadership qualities on and off the ice and who has made a significant humanitarian contribution to his community. Mark Messier Leadership Award: recognizes an individual as a superior leader within their sport, and as a contributing member of society.

Here, Haru 2007 playoff. What a rip-off!

Fair point. But perhaps Chiyonofuji was more gifted than even Asa. It's hard to say what Asa's talents would have allowed him to accomplish, minus the personality. The playoff I'm talking about was in Haru 2007 while Hak was still an Ozeki. It was his first yusho with Asa actually present in the tournament. I'd be surprised if it did last 0.5 seconds. Kimarite was hatakikomi right off the bat. Asa kinda deserved it, as he had just henka'd Chiyo a few minutes before to get into the match in the first place.

It's arguable that without that personality (which I stress would be quite average in Western sports), he never would have been so good in the first place. It was his fire and intensity that got him to where he was. For example, Asashoryu was 5-1 career in (Makuuchi) playoffs. When he needed to win, he brought the fire! His only loss? That ugly henka by Ozeki Hakuho, resulting in the most disappointing playoff match ever. For comparison, Hakuho, who has much less fire, is a mere 3-4 in playoffs, with one of those wins being the ugly henka of Asashoryu. It could be argued that without the henka, Asa would be 6-0 in playoffs, and Hakuho a mere 2-5. But even without it, the trend seems clear. Now WHO has the personality of greatness?

Maybe the press can chase his car and try to kill him with an accident in a tunnel. Then they get to write even more about him and sell the photos of his corpse. That might satisfy the vultures.

Where do you get the nerve to directly quote my wife? She says it to you, too?!

Which is why it's impossible to have a game called "Guess the Banzuke" for example, because everyone would have a perfect score everytime. I know you're half-joking here. Only if it was based on a computer algorithm. You're talking about ranking guys with different amounts of wins and losses at different ranks, and trying to be fair to them relative to the guys around them. Sometimes the slot they 'belong in' is not open. It's tough to do, like making a class schedule for a whole school.

Thanks for that, it was interesting. I like it when you do that. But as they say in Spaceballs, "We're at now now. Everything that's happening now, is happening now." And now the banzuke is purely based on winning, no exceptions (OK, possibly the exception of a dominant wrestler who is too much of a dick to be promoted to Yokozuna).

About the money.... some might say that it's not about the money and that these guys really do love their sport/art. The problem I have with that is the absolutely copious amounts of money involved. Asashoryu's total retirement bonus alone is roughly the same as what I can expect to make in my entire life! How much did the guy make over the course of his career, including salary, yusho bonus, kensho, endorsements, etc? What, US$10 million? US$20 million? More? It just seems like such an insanely-high material reward for a job which some might consider the high-priest of a sacred religious practice. Maybe he'd have done it for US$50,000 a year and a free monthly train pass, but we'll never know. By the way, can we all at least agree that figure skating is not a sport? ;-)

I'm sorry, one millimeter?! That's tiny! Please tell me that you made some kind of mistake there! All this trouble over a 1mm wound? My girlfriend accidentally gave me a 1mm wound this week when she clawed me while trying to grab my hand. It's smaller than a typical papercut.

I guess that sums it up. If winning the competition is the most important element then you are right. However for myself and many others winning in sumo only has value if it follows from correct form / behaviour etc. In the long run, history doesn't seem to just judge those that won the most as the greatest. Chiyonofuji has only one yusho less than Taiho but come to Japan, talk to people here, read Japanese books and you'll see that nobody considers them even remotely on the same level. Yes it's an intangible thing, but what you should realise is that for most people (and more importantly the people who run it) this is what sumo is. I guess it's the same for your kyudo teacher. No problem if you don't agree with it, but you should realise that this is what it is, even if it doesn't make sense. Western logic doesn't fit so well with many concepts here. Why should that bother you if you don't live in Japan? I respect that and see your point. I hope you see mine and that there are 2 sides to the story. Maybe 3 sides. There is the business of sumo, the sport of sumo, and the art of sumo. We all rank them differently, but we are all aware of them. By the way, I do in fact live in Japan.

People who know what they are talking about when it comes to sumo. ;-) ( You DID ask) Yes, and how did that translate into career earnings for them? I'm trying to lead you down a path here. They're fondly remembered, perhaps. But the other guys were rewarded more in one major area, the only tangible reward sumo gives. They don't put your portrait up at the Kokugikan for being a good guy. If it was true about it being a lifestyle, and your (or somebody else's) inevitable comeback that 'money isn't everything', then I'm sure the top rikishi would all be willing to take a pay cut and be rewarded with extra respect. They could then charge 1,000 yen for all tickets and fill the building every day to let people enjoy watching them perform their lifestyle and demonstrate their love of the art. The beautiful ideal you have of sumo has probably been corrupted by money as much as love of almost everything else in this world has. As I added to my above comment, which you probably didn't read because it was a late edit, I'm told even the old-time sumo rikishi were samurai looking for extra income.

When was the last time YOU saw someone win "priest of the year" or get a "best robes in mass" award? Obviously the non-sport element is not competitive. How could you even think that was an arguement? Then why are Kashiwado and Tochinishiki valued way ahead of rikishi that were more successful? They're valued by who exactly? Sports pay for winning. The entire structure of sumo, the banzuke, is based on winning. Chores are also part of the structure. The guys who don't win do chores. The most respectful rikishi in a stable still might have to wash the dishes for the guy who is say, Roho. The reward of sumo is a salary, and if they didn't feel that way, there would be less of it and/or less discrepancy between the pay of the wrestlers. Why doesn't kinboshi get a pat on the back instead of a financial bonus? The sport/non-sport is awash in money and financial reward, and all of it for winning. Which I suppose makes it somewhat like the Vatican, so maybe you have a point. Or are they hypocrites in their palaces? Besides, didn't sumo supposedly used to consist mostly of samurai in need of extra income? It always comes down to income, as pure as people might think it is. When I was studying kyudo, my instructor told me that the most important thing was the form, not to hit the target. But I don't think anybody has ever won a kyudo meet for their form, so clearly it was not the most important. What they say, and what they do with their actions and their reward methods, are completely different.

Damn, I wish they'd bake those things! It would have saved me so much disgust when I was a kid. You also can't do take-out, unlike at a bakery.

Nishi, everyone likes to talk about how it isn't a sport, but it sure seems like one. They value winning more than anything. When was the last time you saw a guy promoted to sekitori status for showing respect to his oyakata? Who won last tournament's award in Juryo for 'most respectful rikishi, as voted by his peers'? Who got a raise for their great leg-stomping? When was the last time the kensho was awarded to the rikishi who bowed the deepest? Which makushita gets paid as much as a Sekiwake because of the diligent manner of his practice? How many times has the Emperor's Cup been awarded to a rikishi with fewer wins than another? In theory, sumo might not be a sport, but when it comes down to it, it's all about winning, baby! That puts it on a par with purse-based sports like tennis or golf.

That seems to be the cause of all your arguements with others here. There is no sport camp. Ozumo is not a sport. No, there most certainly is a sport camp, even if I have to set up the tents and start the campfire myself. But I know there are others. I usually cook dinner or do dishes while they're throwing their salt and stuff, then come back to the TV for the start of the match. I've been doing that for years, and still like watching it plenty. By the way, can we not disagree without it being an 'argument with others'? I respect the reason you like sumo, even if I don't agree. But I get the feeling that there are certain people on this forum (no names) who have no respect for mine, or even consider me inferior to them as a fan.

I can't speak for Wanderer, but believe me, I DO bring that up about religions. This just doesn't seem like the place to go on about the inequalities, hypocrisy and bigotry of religion. Irrational sexism is sexism and it belongs dead in the ground. I don't care what anybody's 'beliefs' are. Why would you assume that we don't bring it up elsewhere? I don't care where the Yokozuna does a ceremony. I'm in the 'sport' camp, and understand that some of you aren't. I'm no more disappointed with sumo than I am with other pro sports, with their lockouts, strikes, dives, etc.