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#1 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 14:24

Hello! What do you think of such monsters as Orora, Maeta, Kainowaka, Akiseyama and a few others? Whenever I look at their fighting, I think they are very weak and do not reach their career. They should heal and lose weight to 170 - 130 pounds. Most of the battles yet lose. What do you think about them?
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#2 Bugman

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:27

Well i appreciate all Sumo wrestlers, but i must admit that there are some occasions when i see a very large wrestler and i think to myself "blimey, that rikishi really needs to lose some weight just for the sake of his health", i do worry.

The thing i notice is that it's not so much the weight perhaps, but the ability of individual rikishi to carry their weight, so for example although kotoshogiku is very big he looks energetic and strong to go with it, as does kisenosato, but then perhaps a wrestler like gagamaru looks somehwat as if he is carrying too much weight for his frame, as he seems to suffer under it.

Now i feel silly for talking about weight in a sport where weight is very important, but you know what i mean, also welcome to the forum :)

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#3 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:38

Thank you.
I have to admit that it works like a bulldozer gagamaru and doing fairly well, but orora or kainowaka look very chunky and frankly I wonder even how they are doing every day in various personal situations. it must be difficult. sumo training and effort in their case, including allowing them to stay alive, with so much fat! ;-)
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#4 Sashohitowa

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 15:43

Czesc, Dawid, welcome to the forum!

I agree thatthe optimal weight for a successful rikishi is around the 150 kg mark. But clearly there has been some "monsters" as you call them (200+ kg) that has been successful. Yamamotoyama is a recent example of a 250+ kg rikishi, establishing himself in the sekitori ranks. For how long, it's a different story, but my point is that there is a clear difference between him and Orora about how he uses his mass. Konishiki also is a good exampel of successful "monster", and let's not forget about Akebono and Musashimaru, who were both 220+ kg yokozuna.

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#5 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:00

Cześć! ;-)

I agree, but Akebono and Musashimaru took on weight during their promotion to the highest division, while Orora or Kainowaka practically started a "career" with a very large weight. Konishiki also had gone quite far, has been Ozeki, but his appearance was not very aesthetic, and often losing with young players. Yamamotoyama me personally not convinced, frankly, not followed his career. Well we'll see how things work out the fate of those big men!
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#6 yorikiried by fate

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:20

Again: Orora is suffering from an illness (name?) that makes him obese. Don't call him monster, call him poor chap.
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#7 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:34

I mean, it's very sad. Well that was the idea for his ailment, and works in sumo. Or in his case would be a good surgical removal of fat? I do not know whether this disease would allow him to, but if so, the operation is a solution.
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#8 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:42

Again: Orora is suffering from an illness (name?) that makes him obese. Don't call him monster, call him poor chap.




give here a link, whether it is the disease which has Orora? http://en.wikipedia....hing's_syndrome
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#9 Asashosakari

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 16:50

Again: Orora is suffering from an illness (name?) that makes him obese. Don't call him monster, call him poor chap.

FWIW, that has been the story ever since he joined sumo, but a couple of years ago somebody on the SML (Katrina Watts? Not sure right now) flatly disputed that Orora is suffering from any type of illness (that would explain his size anyway), so I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

On the subject in general: I suspect many of the veteran rikishi who look like "they would be better if they lost some weight" are actually at a fairly optimal weight as far as their sumo success goes. They might just not have the technical capabilities to win bouts if they traded weight for more agility, and be at points in their career where it's unlikely that they could still pick up those capabilities.

Edited by Asashosakari, 18 January 2012 - 16:56.


#10 Flohru

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 17:08

Again: Orora is suffering from an illness (name?) that makes him obese. Don't call him monster, call him poor chap.

FWIW, that has been the story ever since he joined sumo, but a couple of years ago somebody on the SML (Katrina Watts? Not sure right now) flatly disputed that Orora is suffering from any type of illness (that would explain his size anyway), so I'm not sure what to believe anymore.

If I remember correctly, Orora's disease has something to do with his skin and leads to the swelling of his legs, problems which doesn't directly lead to (but are increased by) his obesity. The main point was that the reason for his still being around is the fact that he needs expensive medicine (which are provided for him in Ozumo).

#11 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 17:29

damage the boyfriend from Russia. I am always sorry when someone is sick, so well that he is in sumo, it might help him fight the disease.
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#12 Kaikitsune Makoto

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 19:25

There is a big difference between fat people and strong people. Fat cells can't be contracted. Rikishi needs muscle.

Konishiki, Yamamotoyama, Musashimaru, Akebono were totally different rikishi than Kainowaka, Orora or any long time makushita/sandanme +180kg rikishi, The difference is in muscle power and that gives the tools to control the "too big" bodies. If you are big you must have lot of muscles to do well in sumo. Often rikishi becomes weaker but stay at same weight when career starts to go bad, what does that mean? Muscle loss and fat instead acclmulates. Many oyakata are fat with loss of muscle which is sad and makes life difficult. Fat is healthier with muscle. If you have fat cell size be sure you have bigger muscle cells too, off or on the dohyo.
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#13 Kuroyama

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 20:00

Let's not forget the other end of that spectrum. It's been clear for a long time that Takanoyama would do much better if only he could pack on a few kilos, but he appears to have the enviable problem that he cannot.

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#14 yorikiried by fate

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 21:20

Thanks for this additional input on Orora. I was just recycling what I picked up around here.
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#15 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 21:24

I am glad that I wrote in the forum, a lot of interesting information can be learned.
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#16 harimakenji

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 22:08

Let's not forget the other end of that spectrum. It's been clear for a long time that Takanoyama would do much better if only he could pack on a few kilos, but he appears to have the enviable problem that he cannot.

I suspect it's not that he cannot put on weight, he doesn't want to. The leanness makes him popular and 'special' in the upper ranks, if he would be around 120-130 kgs, he would be just another run-of-the-mill sumo wrestler.

#17 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 22:34

I think weight is important, but you can have a low priority and to demonstrate good technique, speed and cunning. Please remember Terao, Mainoumi, Tomonohana, Kotonishiki. Now Takanoyama, and many other players in lower divisions, for example, Ohara and his famous fight with Orora. Size and weight are not always an advantage. As for the popularity and willingness to save in memory of people, it may also be a fact. People remember what stands out. I wish you well Takanoyama.
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#18 Kintamayama

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 22:42

Let's not forget the other end of that spectrum. It's been clear for a long time that Takanoyama would do much better if only he could pack on a few kilos, but he appears to have the enviable problem that he cannot.

I suspect it's not that he cannot put on weight, he doesn't want to. The leanness makes him popular and 'special' in the upper ranks, if he would be around 120-130 kgs, he would be just another run-of-the-mill sumo wrestler.

No, we know for a fact for quite a few years now that he is trying his best to gain weight to no avail. You should read this which is the latest on the subject.

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#19 harimakenji

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 23:03

No, we know for a fact for quite a few years now that he is trying his best to gain weight to no avail. You should read this which is the latest on the subject.

I know about the insulin case, but i can't help but think it was all the oyakata's idea, and Takanoyama couldn't do anything but play along (Naruto oyakata had a pretty nasty reputation, i don't think the deshi could talk back to him if he decided on something). There is no such thing as a healthy man who cannot gain any weightif he wants to, it's usually a symptom of an illness, but that's pretty unlikely here.

#20 Asashosakari

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 23:10

No, we know for a fact for quite a few years now that he is trying his best to gain weight to no avail. You should read this which is the latest on the subject.

I know about the insulin case, but i can't help but think it was all the oyakata's idea, and Takanoyama couldn't do anything but play along (Naruto oyakata had a pretty nasty reputation, i don't think the deshi could talk back to him if he decided on something).

Actually, the Kyokai inquiry into the matter stated that Takanoyama had admitted to it being his idea, and considering this was after the oyakata's death there was little reason to go with that public line if it wasn't true. He has also been quoted in the sports papers several times since his juryo promotion (which predated the insulin revelations) that he wants to get up to at least 110 kg.

Edited by Asashosakari, 18 January 2012 - 23:11.


#21 DawidPoland

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Posted 18 January 2012 - 23:36

And what about Akiseyama (Fukao) and his career?
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#22 Dr.Radical

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 00:56

I think weight is important, but you can have a low priority and to demonstrate good technique, speed and cunning. Please remember Terao, Mainoumi, Tomonohana, Kotonishiki. Now Takanoyama, and many other players in lower divisions, for example, Ohara and his famous fight with Orora. Size and weight are not always an advantage. As for the popularity and willingness to save in memory of people, it may also be a fact. People remember what stands out. I wish you well Takanoyama.


You forgot Chiyonofuji! One of the most (if not THE most, but I can't remember) rikishi ever and his peak weight according to sumo reference was only 126 kg! He also made komusubi at under 100 kg!! Very impressive.

http://sumoreference...shi.aspx?r=1354

#23 Kuroyama

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:15

I suspect it's not that he cannot put on weight, he doesn't want to. The leanness makes him popular and 'special' in the upper ranks, if he would be around 120-130 kgs, he would be just another run-of-the-mill sumo wrestler.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Every time for the past several years when I've mentioned his need to put on weight, someone would bleat WELL MAYBE HE DOESN'T WANT TO! DIDJA EVER THINK OF THAT?! HUH? HUH? DIDJA? And now we know from what he's said in public that he does indeed have trouble putting on weight. So I think we can stop doing that now, thanks, unless you choose to believe that he's lying every time.

Of course most people can put on weight if they want to and can set their own schedules. That's not Takanoyama. The sumo lifestyle is not an inactive one. I'm sure that if he didn't go through a strenuous workout every day and just sat on the couch in front of the boob tube sucking down Pilsner for 10 hours at a stretch, he'd develop a beer gut in no time. But his metabolism is such that given his muscle mass and the amount of exercise he gets, the weight just doesn't pile on as you'd expect for most people. It happens. I may be jealous as all hell, but I'm not going to deny it just to make myself feel better.

As far as him being just a run-of-the-mill rikishi, you're clearly wrong. His judo background would militate against that, if nothing else, and the fact that he's made it to the top division while facing men who outweigh him by more than 100 kilos means that he's far from average.

Edited by Kuroyama, 19 January 2012 - 01:35.

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#24 Dr.Radical

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 01:29

Of course most people can put on weight if they want to and can set their own schedules. That's not Takanoyama. The sumo lifestyle is not an inactive one. I'm sure that if he didn't go through a strenuous workout every day and just sat on the couch in front of the boob tube sucking down Pilsner for 10 hours at a stretch, he'd develop a beer gut in no time. But his metabolism is such that given his muscle mass and the amount of exercise he gets, the weight just doesn't pile on as you'd expect for most people. It happens. I may be jealous as all hell, but I'm not going to deny it just to make myself feel better.


Maybe he should supplement his chanko diet with McDonald's as well. Drinking a ton of beer would be a good start too, although I've read that rikishi drink a lot of beer to begin with (just as a side note on bad habits sumo wrestlers have, I've read that Kaio was a heavy smoker!).

His fast metabolism probably adds on to the fact that he has to consume many, many calories in the first place to maintain what little he has with all of the training he's doing (this was awhile ago but remember that picture of Michael Phelps carrying a tray with a mountain of McDonald's food on it? They said that he has to consume something ridiculous like 10,000 calories a day to maintain his muscle). Hell, I know what having a metabolism like that is like. I hardly get any exercise and I'm still rail thin. That's starting to slow down though, I'm afraid.....

#25 Igordemorais

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Posted 19 January 2012 - 03:48

The Takanoyama talk never ends. Hell, I created a Sumo topic on the Brazilian MMA forum, and every basho gets tens of thousands of views, people are starting to get into sumo, the dynamic sport, the drama.

Do you know what the number one most discussed subject is?

You got it: Takanoyama. He has a legion of fans. Hell, I`m a Tak fan.

And everyone always gets frustrated when it is stated that he can not gain weight.

Let's look at the elements, shall we?


1. Takanoyama has been in sumo for 10 years. In this time he has gained 15kgs.

2. He has actively tried to gain weight for a long time, and has attempted methods such as:

a. protein shakes all day and at night, after 4 hours of sleep, to avoid catabolism.
b. steroid cycles, including the extremely anabolic hormone insulin, which ALSO stimulates fat gain
c. extremely caloric diets


So why doesn't Tak gain weight?

1. 4 hours of daily intense sumo training, which not only means massive caloric expenditure but also little rest for recovery and mass/fat gain.
2. Extremely fast metabolism.
3. He dislikes japanese food.


Given all these elements, it is extremely unlikely that he will gain weight. I would say there are 2 possibilities though:

1. As he gets older his metabolism will inevitably slow down and he will naturally gain some weight. Unfortunately, as he grows older he becomes slower and weaker.

2. Now that he has tasted the glory of the first division, he might try harder, or new methods, to gain weight. Such as: androgenic steroids, extremely caloric diets, personal nutritionist, less training, etc.



Let`s hope he gets to the mininum competitive weight, where technical phenoms such as Harumafuji and Chiyonofuji fight: 125kgs.

Edited by Igordemorais, 19 January 2012 - 03:50.



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