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Shisho-kai convenes-September 29th 2011-New toshiyori rules


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#1 Kintamayama

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 16:26

The shisho-kai (meeting of all stable owners) convened today. A message was sent out reminding the rikishi not to strike any poses after winning. This, after the Kyokai received letters protesting these outbursts on the dohyo and complaining about sloppy shikiri. All shishos were asked to remind their rikishi of the guidelines of correct behavior.
Again.

A decision was also made that anyone wishing to open a new stable or any inheriting of a stable will have to be approved by the rijikai. This will be enforced from today. Until now, a notification to the rijikai was enough. "Even if the shisho agrees to everything in writing, the rijikai may refuse to acknowledge it," said Nishonoseki Oyakata, hinting this was the first concrete step towards the Kyokai's closer scrutiny and control over heya dealings.


Edited by Kintamayama, 31 January 2013 - 11:05.

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#2 Asashosakari

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 18:21

A decision was also made that anyone wishing to open a new stable or any inheriting of a stable will have to be approved by the rijikai. This will be enforced from today. Until now, a notification to the rijikai was enough. "Even if the shisho agrees to everything in writing, the rijikai may refuse to acknowledge it," said Nishonoseki Oyakata, hinting this was the first concrete step towards the Kyokai's closer scrutiny and control over heya dealings.

Meh. Considering that kabu changes/exchanges have had to be "approved" since, like, forever, I doubt this will amount to much.

#3 Kintamayama

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 21:23

A decision was also made that anyone wishing to open a new stable or any inheriting of a stable will have to be approved by the rijikai. This will be enforced from today. Until now, a notification to the rijikai was enough. "Even if the shisho agrees to everything in writing, the rijikai may refuse to acknowledge it," said Nishonoseki Oyakata, hinting this was the first concrete step towards the Kyokai's closer scrutiny and control over heya dealings.

Meh. Considering that kabu changes/exchanges have had to be "approved" since, like, forever, I doubt this will amount to much.

I think the main point is the part where the rijikai can refuse to accept it. I sense a veiled warning to anyone who wants to open a new heya in the near future to faggedaboutit till things get sorted out.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#4 Asashosakari

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 22:07

I think the main point is the part where the rijikai can refuse to accept it. I sense a veiled warning to anyone who wants to open a new heya in the near future to faggedaboutit till things get sorted out.

But the much greater issue is all the existing stables, and I really don't see how they'll be able to refuse somebody's chosen successor. At least not with just this new ruling. What are they gonna do - order the stable to be merged into another one, whose owner perhaps doesn't even want to do it either?

And if somebody like Kaio wants to branch out, there's no way he gets refused. Oyakata without ozeki/yokozuna experience have become a negligible factor in the heya-founding game with the 2006 rule change anyway, so IMO unless this is just the first salvo of many, it's a pretty toothless change.

#5 Kintamayama

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 22:27

I think the main point is the part where the rijikai can refuse to accept it. I sense a veiled warning to anyone who wants to open a new heya in the near future to faggedaboutit till things get sorted out.

But the much greater issue is all the existing stables, and I really don't see how they'll be able to refuse somebody's chosen successor. At least not with just this new ruling. What are they gonna do - order the stable to be merged into another one, whose owner perhaps doesn't even want to do it either?

And if somebody like Kaio wants to branch out, there's no way he gets refused. Oyakata without ozeki/yokozuna experience have become a negligible factor in the heya-founding game with the 2006 rule change anyway, so IMO unless this is just the first salvo of many, it's a pretty toothless change.

Some change is definitely in the works, otherwise they wouldn't have made a point of pointing it out, with Nishonoseki quotes and all. I'm guessing even quite a major change.
We' shall see.

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A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#6 Asashosakari

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 23:36

Some change is definitely in the works, otherwise they wouldn't have made a point of pointing it out, with Nishonoseki quotes and all. I'm guessing even quite a major change.
We' shall see.

I dunno, barely four months before the elections it seems more like saber-rattling by the "we've got to play ball with what the outside reformers say" group around Hanaregoma to me.

In the end the focus on founders and inheritors is probably misguided anyway - those guys aren't the problem since they're typically young and motivated. The problem is the 54-year-old guys whose stables either never developed the way they once hoped, or which already peaked, and who are now going to preside over a pathetic shell of a heya for another decade. That's the point at which underperforming stables need to be dealt with, not 10 years later when a motivated young oyakata is set to take over.

#7 Kintamayama

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 06:55

Hanaregoma Rijicho is also demanding the rikishi stop wearing gaudy colored underwear. Red, yellow and with prints -definite no-nos, says the rijicho. Typically, underwear used to be white or light-blue with the occasional skid mark. Now that the shitakubeya is closely monitored by oyakata, they have been subject to a colorful onslaught of varying underwear. Hanaregoma wished to put an end to this.
Additionally, he has asked the rikishi to go easy on excessive bandaging, as fans have been writing in complaining that they do not wish to see a free preview of "The Mummy 4" thrust upon them involuntarily.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#8 Kintamayama

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 06:59

In the end the focus on founders and inheritors is probably misguided anyway - those guys aren't the problem since they're typically young and motivated.

A small Nishonoseki Oyakata addendum is now being quoted. "Soon we may have foreign -born rikishi (who acquired Japanese citizenship) as Oyakata so we have to check this out closely!".
Former Azumazeki?

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#9 Kintamayama

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 10:36

They also announced the two charity tournaments, Ozumo and NHK, will be renewed on February 5th and 11th respectively at the KKan.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#10 Asojima

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 16:32

Hanaregoma Rijicho is also demanding the rikishi stop wearing gaudy colored underwear. Red, yellow and with prints -definite no-nos, says the rijicho. Typically, underwear used to be white or light-blue with the occasional skid mark. Now that the shitakubeya is closely monitored by oyakata, they have been subject to a colorful onslaught of varying underwear. Hanaregoma wished to put an end to this.
Additionally, he has asked the rikishi to go easy on excessive bandaging, as fans have been writing in complaining that they do not wish to see a free preview of "The Mummy 4" thrust upon them involuntarily.

I could understand this post if it were made on April 1, but it is still September here.

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#11 Kintamayama

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 17:22

I could understand this post if it were made on April 1, but it is still September here.

As I wrote it, I was thinking the same thing but this is totally true.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#12 Asashosakari

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 08:34

A small Nishonoseki Oyakata addendum is now being quoted. "Soon we may have foreign -born rikishi (who acquired Japanese citizenship) as Oyakata so we have to check this out closely!".
Former Azumazeki?

I'm finally getting around to checking the news blurbs directly - the rule change is being justified in that it will allow the board to perform "background checks" of sorts about prospective heya-owners who have already caused issues/scandals in the past. Yeah, and foreigners, because that's apparently an issue all by itself...

I still doubt this is going to get them anywhere. Shouldn't they be doing all that at the kabu-acquisition stage? Keeping questionable characters merely out of the stable-owning game seems like an attempt at security through obscurity.

Edited by Asashosakari, 01 October 2011 - 08:36.


#13 Asashosakari

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 09:02

Another newsbit - because of the generally very positive response to them the performance scoresheets that were originally scheduled for use only in the Tokyo tournaments will also be introduced for the three regional basho, starting right with the upcoming Kyushu basho.

According to Nishonoseki-oyakata there may also be a recognition of some sort for the top annual vote-getter starting next year.

Edited by Asashosakari, 01 October 2011 - 09:04.


#14 Fay

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:22

Another newsbit - because of the generally very positive response to them the performance scoresheets that were originally scheduled for use only in the Tokyo tournaments will also be introduced for the three regional basho, starting right with the upcoming Kyushu basho.

According to Nishonoseki-oyakata there may also be a recognition of some sort for the top annual vote-getter starting next year.


Sorry it's not really focussed, but this is one of the scoresheets. Juyro and Makuuchi bouts are to judge, the winner as well as the loser. You also have to name if you are male or female, and how old are you.

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#15 Kuroyama

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Posted 01 October 2011 - 11:34

Additionally, he has asked the rikishi to go easy on excessive bandaging, as fans have been writing in complaining that they do not wish to see a free preview of "The Mummy 4" thrust upon them involuntarily.

They just want to keep this guy off the dohyo:
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#16 ilovesumo

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Posted 02 October 2011 - 14:49

Hanaregoma Rijicho is also demanding the rikishi stop wearing gaudy colored underwear. Red, yellow and with prints -definite no-nos, says the rijicho. Typically, underwear used to be white or light-blue with the occasional skid mark. Now that the shitakubeya is closely monitored by oyakata, they have been subject to a colorful onslaught of varying underwear. Hanaregoma wished to put an end to this.
Additionally, he has asked the rikishi to go easy on excessive bandaging, as fans have been writing in complaining that they do not wish to see a free preview of "The Mummy 4" thrust upon them involuntarily.

I could understand this post if it were made on April 1, but it is still September here.


:-( ;-)

Ouch...they just found a new way to make people unhappy who actually work FOR Sumo.
Just think of Lion-do, selling Rikishi-sized clothes. They have this famous short-collection with rikishi-prints on em... Many colours, nice design.

I just don't get it...now those are the problems preventing young boys from joining Ozumo...yeah, I will write another thesis just to prove that.....

not
(First prize...)

Edited by ilovesumo, 02 October 2011 - 14:50.

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#17 Kintamayama

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 21:50

The committee with the longest name on earth- "Public Service Corporation System Reform Counter-measure committee" convened today and came up with a three-point suggestion as to the future of the toshiyori myoseki (stocks).
1. A retiring heya-owning Oyakata will turn the stock over to the Kyokai for a fixed fee (merit bonus) in addition to the regular retirement pay and other monies owed.
2. After this point the stock cannot be bought or sold privately.
3. The successor of the heya can be recommended by the retiring Oyakata but will have to be deemed "appropriate" by the rijikai.
These three points will be the basis of the new agreement. The exact sum of the merit bonus and other particulars will be discussed at a later date. Punishments for those who refuse to abide by the new rules will also be decided soon.
The proposal will be introduced to all the other oyakatas at the hyougiin-kai meeting on the 12th. There will most certainly be a lot of opposition to this proposal. The plan is to reach a final decision and present it to the Ministry of etc.. before the end of this year as promised.
Two more ideas will be discussed further - The new organization will have no more than 15 riji, and Makushita and under rikishi will have an "enrollment term" meaning they can't languish in the lower ranks forever and will be capped, age-wise or career- years wise.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#18 Yubinhaad

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 16:54

The committee with the longest name on earth- "Public Service Corporation System Reform Counter-measure committee" convened today and came up with a three-point suggestion as to the future of the toshiyori myoseki (stocks).
1. A retiring heya-owning Oyakata will turn the stock over to the Kyokai for a fixed fee (merit bonus) in addition to the regular retirement pay and other monies owed.
2. After this point the stock cannot be bought or sold privately.

Anything about the non-heya toshiyori, or will they be treated the same?

and Makushita and under rikishi will have an "enrollment term" meaning they can't languish in the lower ranks forever and will be capped, age-wise or career- years wise.

Don't like this idea at all! >:-(

#19 Fukurou

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 17:29

and Makushita and under rikishi will have an "enrollment term" meaning they can't languish in the lower ranks forever and will be capped, age-wise or career- years wise.

Don't like this idea at all! >:-(


I agree, but it's not that unusual. It's like the "up or out" of (some) military organizations, or the "publish or perish" of academia. Also similar to professional baseball in the US, when a player hasn't made enough progress in the minor leagues the team cuts him - and it's quite likely no other team will pick him up.

Of course, this isn't team sports. Still, I can understand - the various scandals have removed "blockages" and allowed many rikishi to move up (some perhaps faster than they really should have). Perhaps they want to do more of this, without the scandals this time. But if they go too far, will they have enough rikishi to fill the ranks?

Edited by Fukurou, 10 December 2011 - 17:36.

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#20 Yubinhaad

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 19:20

I agree, but it's not that unusual. It's like the "up or out" of (some) military organizations, or the "publish or perish" of academia. Also similar to professional baseball in the US, when a player hasn't made enough progress in the minor leagues the team cuts him - and it's quite likely no other team will pick him up.

True, but in all of those examples an individual could improve and perhaps return for a second try. That can't be done in ozumo - when you're out, you're out for good.

Of course, this isn't team sports. Still, I can understand - the various scandals have removed "blockages" and allowed many rikishi to move up (some perhaps faster than they really should have). Perhaps they want to do more of this, without the scandals this time. But if they go too far, will they have enough rikishi to fill the ranks?

A cursory glance at my list of veterans only shows about 50 rikishi who have been in ozumo for 15 years or more. Not many of them have reached sekitori level, nor are they likely to. But would removing them really make the path that much easier for a new generation of deshi? If they're good enough, they should be able to beat these old guys and move up anyway. Those that make it to sekitori without really deserving it, will hopefully get found out eventually.

#21 Kintamayama

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 19:49

Anything about the non-heya toshiyori, or will they be treated the same?

Of course, I was talking out of my.."hand' again-this goes for everyone.
Mental blocks are much shorter in between. Not good.
Who?

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A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#22 Asashosakari

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 22:06

Of course, this isn't team sports. Still, I can understand - the various scandals have removed "blockages" and allowed many rikishi to move up (some perhaps faster than they really should have). Perhaps they want to do more of this, without the scandals this time. But if they go too far, will they have enough rikishi to fill the ranks?

A cursory glance at my list of veterans only shows about 50 rikishi who have been in ozumo for 15 years or more. Not many of them have reached sekitori level, nor are they likely to. But would removing them really make the path that much easier for a new generation of deshi? If they're good enough, they should be able to beat these old guys and move up anyway. Those that make it to sekitori without really deserving it, will hopefully get found out eventually.

Yeah, anybody who's really being blocked from advancement by some 36-year-old career sandanme is probably a future candidate for enforced intai himself, so that wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

I haven't seen any detailed rumours about these official proposals, but the suggestions being bandied about months ago mostly were about reviving the old notion of requiring rikishi to reach makushita in a set amount of time/age. I sure hope they're not talking about timing out rikishi who have already established themselves in makushita just because they've turned 26 or something; career patterns tend to diverge rather dramatically in that division even for rikishi with similar starting points (i.e. debut ages), and it's far from unusual that even future steady sekitori will take several years to break through.

Edited by Asashosakari, 10 December 2011 - 22:15.


#23 Fukurou

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Posted 10 December 2011 - 23:03

I haven't seen any detailed rumours about these official proposals, but the suggestions being bandied about months ago mostly were about reviving the old notion of requiring rikishi to reach makushita in a set amount of time/age. I sure hope they're not talking about timing out rikishi who have already established themselves in makushita just because they've turned 26 or something; career patterns tend to diverge rather dramatically in that division even for rikishi with similar starting points (i.e. debut ages), and it's far from unusual that even future steady sekitori will take several years to break through.

If they're going to revive old notions for improving sumo, IMO they really should revive the one where a rikishi could miss 1 complete basho without losing his rank.
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#24 Asashosakari

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Posted 11 December 2011 - 17:46

The proposal will be introduced to all the other oyakatas at the hyougiin-kai meeting on the 12th. There will most certainly be a lot of opposition to this proposal.

Additional note on this: Following earlier vocal opposition when these proposals were first discussed and various people brought up the alternative of changing the Kyokai's charter to that of a general corporation (instead of a public-interest one, which is what these kabu proposals are tied to), Hanaregoma-rijicho requested all five ichimon to discuss their position amongst themselves. That has mostly happened now, and the majority of the members in each of the Takasago, Dewanoumi, Nishonoseki and Tatsunami groups are reportedly in favour of the public-interest plan, with the biggest opposition seemingly found within Tatsunami. Tokitsukaze-ichimon will stake out its position tomorrow, presumably right before the all-hands meeting that Kinta mentioned takes place.

I doubt that having this apparent majority in favour of Hanaregoma's plan will make that meeting any less controversial though.

#25 Kintamayama

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 18:21

The proposal will be introduced to all the other oyakatas at the hyougiin-kai meeting on the 12th.

Decision postponed till the 14th.

Edited by Kintamayama, 12 December 2011 - 18:22.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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