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Shisho-kai convenes-September 29th 2011-New toshiyori rules


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#26 Asashosakari

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 02:13

The proposal will be introduced to all the other oyakatas at the hyougiin-kai meeting on the 12th.

Decision postponed till the 14th.

And if that doesn't do it, they'll try yet again before the year is out, Sports Hochi says. In any case, those present at the Monday meeting were handed a reform agenda paper featuring no less than 106 items, but curiously absent from that missive was anything concrete about the kabu reforms (which weren't AWOL altogether, but apparently listed without any details). Seems like that made the meeting mostly a waste of time considering that's the single most contentious issue and the oyakatas kinda want to know how exactly the leadership plans to proceed, but what do I know...

Edited by Asashosakari, 13 December 2011 - 02:16.


#27 Asashosakari

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 13:24

The good news first: the oyakata general assembly has signed off on more than half of the 106 items on the reform agenda now. The kabu reform proposal isn't among them though, so they'll be meeting again on the 16th. Two further contentious items: a plan to have new deshi sign contracts directly with the Kyokai, and a proposal to install an expert outsider in a "secretary-general" position with authority equal to that of a riji.

#28 Kintamayama

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 20:11

The good news first: the oyakata general assembly has signed off on more than half of the 106 items on the reform agenda now. The kabu reform proposal isn't among them though, so they'll be meeting again on the 16th. Two further contentious items: a plan to have new deshi sign contracts directly with the Kyokai, and a proposal to install an expert outsider in a "secretary-general" position with authority equal to that of a riji.

"We had a lot to discuss so we'll meet again to continue our discussions," opted Hakkaku Oyakata.
"We're in the middle of deliberations." explained the rijicho.
"We're stalling as much as we can," said me.
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#29 Kintamayama

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 13:20

As expected, no decisions today. It may take till the end of January, some are saying. The problem is, the Ministry of etc.. was promised an answer by the end of the year. "We'll get it done by the end of the year," said Hakkaku Oyakata.
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#30 Kintamayama

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Posted 21 December 2011 - 09:52

Two more ideas will be discussed further - The new organization will have no more than 15 riji

The general agreement reached today in yet another meeting was that the number will be 10-15, and that in any case the sumo people will be a majority. The numbers being kicked around at the moment are 10 sumo grads and 5 outsiders.
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#31 Kintamayama

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Posted 25 December 2011 - 17:40

At today's hyogiinkai and rijikai, it was decided more or less to go with the plan of handing over the stock to the Kyokai's control upon retirement in return for a monetary compensation. Some 90% of the Oyakata are now in favor of this. Major decisions to be made: How much money will be paid by the Kyokai, banning of selling and buying to anyone else, penalties for not complying, and establishing a body that will choose the successor. All this will have to be decided by the new governing body which will be chosen in January, and the final decisions will be made by next June. "This is a big step forward. It was done well.." said civilian committee member Murayama-san. Other Oyakata weren't that enthusiastic, though. "Well, this is an important issue so a serious dialogue was had. I guess most of us agreed to a certain extent," mumbled Oguruma Oyakata. "How can I plan my future?". asked a thirty old Oyakata. " I'm still deeply in debt.. How on earth will I repay it?" asked a 50 year old Oyakata. "I brought up sekitori with my own hands.. now everyone wants a piece of the heya??" asked a pissed off Oyakata.

Edited by Kintamayama, 25 December 2011 - 20:18.

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#32 Kintamayama

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Posted 28 December 2011 - 08:04

Rijicho comes to the Ministry of Etc. bearing apologies (for not being able to reach a final agreement regarding the toshiyori thingy) but nonetheless presenting an outline of the Kyokai's plans to become a Public Foundation:

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#33 Asashosakari

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Posted 27 January 2012 - 07:44

At today's hyogiinkai and rijikai, it was decided more or less to go with the plan of handing over the stock to the Kyokai's control upon retirement in return for a monetary compensation. Some 90% of the Oyakata are now in favor of this.

Affirmed in another all-hands meeting on Wednesday and made official policy by the board of directors yesterday. At last... Outgoing rijicho Hanaregoma and some other officials made a beeline to the Ministry of Etc. right afterwards to report the news. The exact details of the policy will be hashed out by the new board until June or so.

#34 Yubinhaad

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 21:41

I'm just trying to get everything straightened out in my mind - are the toshiyori buy-back rules in force already, or will that only happen when (if...) the Kyokai changes over to a public interest company? And given the financial dire straits the Kyokai is in as reported here, can the buy-back even happen at all?

#35 Asashosakari

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 22:10

I'm just trying to get everything straightened out in my mind - are the toshiyori buy-back rules in force already, or will that only happen when (if...) the Kyokai changes over to a public interest company? And given the financial dire straits the Kyokai is in as reported here, can the buy-back even happen at all?

The buyback regulations aren't on the books yet, as the exact framework still needs to be decided (supposedly by summer); so far they've only made the general determination that they will implement that plan. As for whether it would come into effect right away or only on the date their legal entity changes, I have no idea.

Their bad financial performance in fiscal 2011 wasn't a surprise, so I assume that was already reflected in all the discussions of the last few months.

My crystal ball says that the Kyokai will change on the last possible date, i.e. 11/30/2013, and also introduce the buyback rules only then, which would work to their advantage in several ways:

- Allows the current board to serve out their term, as it's probably more defensible to stick to the Kyokai's usual re-election schedule (next one in Jan 2014) if there's as little time as possible between the voiding of their current organizational framework and the first "new" election.
- Allows the large number of oyakata who are set to retire in the near future - no less than 12 between Oct 2012 and Nov 2013, among them several outgoing riji and deputy riji - the opportunity to be the last ones to sell their kabu under the old rules. (Which you may either interpret as craven protection of self-interest, or as a gesture of goodwill from everybody else for all the internal criticism they've had to go through because of this whole, probably unavoidable, buyback thing.)
- Protects the Kyokai from having to shell out big money for those 12 shares (possibly 13, depending on how quickly Tagonoura-kabu is snapped up) right at the start of the new regulations. In 2014 and 2015 only three oyakata are set to retire, which would be a much better time to phase that in.

#36 Yubinhaad

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Posted 22 February 2012 - 22:52

Great, thanks for that!

It doesn't show a lot of goodwill to the prospective buyers of the toshiyori in the big sale though, since they won't be able to benefit from setting their own price for their share in the future. Then again, for the youngest oyakata that'll be more or less three decades away - by which time there might be a whole different system in place, if there's a system at all. My head hurts.

Edited by Yubinhaad, 22 February 2012 - 22:55.


#37 Asashosakari

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 00:25

Great, thanks for that!

Keep in mind it's just my wild speculation. :-)


It doesn't show a lot of goodwill to the prospective buyers of the toshiyori in the big sale though, since they won't be able to benefit from setting their own price for their share in the future. Then again, for the youngest oyakata that'll be more or less three decades away - by which time there might be a whole different system in place, if there's a system at all. My head hurts.

Those prospective buyers of the next year and a half might catch a nice break from the sudden availability of so many kabus though - at least assuming that something like a "buyer's market" can really exist in such an unusual environment, with very low trading volume even at the best of times, combined with a somewhat fragmented market due to ichimons trying to hold on to their "own" instead of allowing oyakata to simply sell to the highest bidder.

More important could be that the sellers might be under time pressure in case there's a sell-by deadline after which their shares revert to the Kyokai automatically as well (like those of oyakata who only turn 65 after the overall deadline).

But all that just shows that there are still a lot of open questions to be answered until they can actually put a complete framework in place later this year. (And I wouldn't even be surprised if the roadblocks are so severe that the whole idea gets questioned again.) If the Kyokai really does go with a delayed introduction, e.g. to November 2013, I wonder if some soon-retiring oyakata without an obvious successor - perhaps Hanaregoma? - might decide to hand his share back to the central office anyway even though he's not required to do so. Depending on how the market price develops and how the rules framework sets the buyback value, that may even end up being a good deal, actually...

(@Mods: Perhaps this post and the previous three would be more at home in another thread.)

#38 Yubinhaad

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 01:03

Keep in mind it's just my wild speculation. :-)

Actually, I just meant the answer to my question about the buy-back rules. ;-) But, the speculation makes a lot of sense anyway!

Those prospective buyers of the next year and a half might catch a nice break from the sudden availability of so many kabus though - at least assuming that something like a "buyer's market" can really exist in such an unusual environment, with very low trading volume even at the best of times, combined with a somewhat fragmented market due to ichimons trying to hold on to their "own" instead of allowing oyakata to simply sell to the highest bidder.

We could also see that situation in which each toshiyori finds a very convenient buyer from the ichimon at exactly the right time, purely by coincidence. That depends on what the active situation is I suppose, or the situation with those on a borrowed stock.

More important could be that the sellers might be under time pressure in case there's a sell-by deadline after which their shares revert to the Kyokai automatically as well (like those of oyakata who only turn 65 after the overall deadline).
But all that just shows that there are still a lot of open questions to be answered until they can actually put a complete framework in place later this year. (And I wouldn't even be surprised if the roadblocks are so severe that the whole idea gets questioned again.) If the Kyokai really does go with a delayed introduction, e.g. to November 2013, I wonder if some soon-retiring oyakata without an obvious successor - perhaps Hanaregoma? - might decide to hand his share back to the central office anyway even though he's not required to do so. Depending on how the market price develops and how the rules framework sets the buyback value, that may even end up being a good deal, actually...


I might just have gone soft on him because I like the way he handled his time in the big chair, but I see Hanaregoma as probably of the generation who would do what they thought was best for the Kyokai, regardless of the financial implications. But that's just my very distant perspective on him, and I don't mean to imply that others would try and screw as many yen as they could out of the association.

As you point out, there's a lot of work to be done on this whole thing before it becomes reality.

(@Mods: Perhaps this post and the previous three would be more at home in another thread.)


(Laughing...) I was thinking more along the lines of this one - we might have to babu as much as we can, just in case the kabu don't babu any more.

#39 Manekineko

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Posted 23 February 2012 - 13:45

(@Mods: Perhaps this post and the previous three would be more at home in another thread.)

And done. B-)
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#40 Kintamayama

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:03

The rijikai convened today and has agreed to the proposals made by the new very long named committee regarding the handling of miyoseki in the future. Generally speaking, all stock will belong to the Kyokai and anyone caught buying and selling privately will be "severely penalized". This will come into effect  in a time-frame of three years after the Kyokai is recognized as a "Public Service Corporation".


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