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Featured rikishi: Takanonami


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#1 Rijicho

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 09:10

Takanonami!

Stage is yours. I'll chuck in my salt later myself.

Edited by Rijicho, 24 April 2004 - 09:29.


#2 hoshidango

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 10:12

He is only 32. Is he losing interst in Sumo? I heard he does not do practice much at all because for the fear of injury... He seems like ready to retire very soon like even possibly next basho? Too bad I am a fan.

#3 sekihiryu

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 11:51

I did some trawling through the vast files at SML archive and found these tidbits

From January 1996

Musashimaru   (9 - 4)     16  vs   4          Takanonami     (12- 1)

4-16 is a pretty poor record for an ozeki to have against another ozeki,
considering that they both were promoted around the same time.  For those
of you who get to see Takanonami fight every day, what seems to be the
difference this time.  Has he changed his fighting style a lot, or has he
just got more focus?  The lackluster effort by Musashimaru in this and the
last basho, Akebono's troubles, the inconsistency of the four ozeki
candidates (Kaio, Musoyama, Tosanoumi, and Kotonishiki), and the fact that
Takanonami doesn't face Takanohana, Wakanohana, Takatoriki, or Akinoshima
all lead to a scary possibility:  Takanonami promoted to yokozuna.  He could
finish 14-1 this time, and without much competition, he might be able to put
together a couple of flashy records in the next two basho.  I assume that
the sumo kyokai is not real high on his fighting spirit and ways of winning,
but if he can put together a couple of jun-yushos and maybe Takanohana
doesn't zensho...  Well, anyway, he might be back to the same old Takanonami
that we know and love in March.

Chris Sparks


he went onto win this basho 14 -1 with a playoff victory against Takanohana

Takanohana was pretty surprised by the Ozeki's quick
tachiai. In an odd move, the Yokozuna soon tried for a
kirikaeshi, but Ozeki was too strong. After various new
attempts by both, Hana got Nami sideways and to the edge,
where Nami stood squarely on top of the rice bales, but
not touching outside. Nami slipped back, and Hana came
along to try for the killer. But instead of going down
alone, Nami pulled down Hana from his right side, and
the Yokozuna dropped underneath Nami. This was a really
good one, not like the Taka/Waka kettei-sen. I have a
ton of things to do this week, so I can't make any
promises on the date, but I will be digitizing this one
and making it available to ftp sites that can accept it.
David Riley


interesting was that he was 4 -16 agaisnt Maru, yet by Nov the following year (1997)he had put seven unanswered wins an Maru

NOV 1997

And for those of you who think that Takanonami does not deserve to be
Ozeki, please note that he has beaten Musashimaru seven times in a row
now, and is 2-0 against Takanohana in playoffs.  I think he's
clearly much better than any of the Sekiwake we've seen recently, too.

Yugo Nov 1997.


Being down 4 - 16 and then coming back to be 11-16 is a great recovery.
He went on to win this Basho (Nov1997) 14 -1 but maybe it was not good sumo as some people on the mailing list called him "Henkanonami" which seems to be a SML nickname to compliment the "evil one"
also some thought Takanohana tanked in the playoff to let him win

I have a real question in regards of the playoffs.  I have noticed that 3
playoffs that involved the 3  from the same stable, the 2 ozeki have beat
him.  I really wonder if he (Takanohana) really poured out all his strength
to win.  This playoff, Nohana seemed to let Nami win.  I did not see the
power he used against Maru.  I really wonder that Nohana let him win since
it was be good for the Nami and Nohana really didn't have to win because of
his record and that he wouldn't get demoted.  I really wonder if any of you
agree with this?

I really didn't see any fight on Nohana.  Seemed rather easy for Nami!
or is Nohana not really a strong rikishi when it comes to upper level
rikishi from his stable and if he had the same schedule as Ake & Maru,
whould he be as good as he is with his light schedule?  Or is the matches
just fixed?

Sorry Nohana Fans, but it really seems fishy that Nohana lost so easily!

Just my three cents!

Scott Light



In Dec 1997 he had heart troubles

According to a Japanese report, the reason of him visited hospital was
"irregular heart beat". He stayed over night for the exam and
precautious purposes, then he went back. He said that it's "nothing
serious" and he will start practicing as soon as the new year break is
over.

He has only a week to prepare for Hatsu-basho. Certainly it's not a
great news to him. But then he is very unusual type of rikishi and he is
very much unpredictable. When he won yusho in Kyushu, his knee condition
was far from perfect, but you know the result.

For regular rikishi, visiting hospital is a bad news, but this might be
a good sign for Takanonami to stay in his own "my-pace". And he is "my
pace" type of rikishi.

-Toshiyori Masumiriki


In his possisible Yokozuna promotion Basho of Hatsu 98 he went 10 - 5 including a loss on the final day to Akebono after Nami tried to Henka

He was suferring from a chronically injured ankle in 1998/99 and finally lost his Ozeki rank in Nov 99 after losing to Toki of all people on Day 13.

Well, it finally happened!
Takanonami just lost to Glow-in-the-dark Toki by Oshitaoshi, is MK and
will be demoted to Sekiwake!

I for one am sad to see this happen, but I do believe it was
inevitable...
Anyone believe he can make a comeback?
My gut feeling says no... :-(

--

Greetings from a Sumo fan from the Netherlands,

Jan "Chijanofuji" de Veen


the rest is history as for the past 4 years he has been moping around in Makuuchi like a lost kid.

Hope all that makes sense! (Applauding...)

Edited by sekihiryu, 24 April 2004 - 12:15.

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#4 Yubiquitoyama

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Posted 24 April 2004 - 15:11

I think one shouldn't be too hard on Takanonami for his often off performances after Ozeki demotion. He's been there near the top and stayed Ozeki for a long time. Then he dropped and has without a doubt various injuries and problems which make it harder for him to do hard keiko and keep up his spirit on the dohyo.

Despite that, he has (including the May basho) been able to stay in the top division for 4 whole years after Ozeki demotion, and that is tied for first with Konishiki for fallen Ozekis. It seems it's often difficult for them to fully assume the role of elevator rikishi, so in that respect Takanonami has done really well to keep in for so long.

He seems a really nice guy from the various interviews and reports I have read through the years and I hope he can stay in for longer, but it isn't so strange that the will and the spirit is beginning to give. He was Ozeki and was so for a long time. It's a completely different story than hanging in there bouncing up and down...

Espcecially since the once great heya he belongs to now is a shadow of its former self, and Takanohana taking it over doesn't in any way seem to have changed that to the better, and Nami is the last one of the old guard. I just hope he stays in there for as long as possible, even in this time of renewal in the ranks (Applauding...)
Start a support group for pessimists? Nah, that would never work...

#5 hoshidango

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 01:35

I did some trawling through the vast files at SML archive and found these tidbits ...

Great info Sekihiryu.

#6 Zuikakuyama

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 08:09

Great summary Seki.

I have always admired nami for his durability. If I recall correctly, he did not take any bashos off in all of his 10+ year career. That in alone of itself is a great accomplishment, in view of all the kyujos we have seen in all the ozekis.

That he is losing interest is not hardly surprising at all since all of his contemporaries are gone now.

He is always that one guy who I root for in every basho, but I dont think he will last until the end of this year.

#7 Kashunowaka

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Posted 25 April 2004 - 20:26

Takanonami's way of doing sumo is definitely his own. I tried to find some good examples of Takanonami-sumo at banzuke.com, and so turned to the latest (last?) basho when he was really hot, which was Kyusho 2002. He went 10-5 as maegashira 1 (6-3 against sanyaku) and won the kanto-sho.

Day 4 against Tochiazuma:
http://www.banzuke.c...azu_takanami.rm
Tochiazuma must be satisfied with a tachiai where he can get that kind of grip. Takanonami is very upright and the bout seems to be over. Nami in good form defends well against Tochiazuma's force-out attempts, but it sure looks like Tochiazuma's bout.
Suddenly Nami locks Tochiazuma's arm from above and swings him down and out with kotenage!

Day 5 against Musashimaru:
http://www.banzuke.c...shi_takanami.rm
Takanonami's first kinboshi. :-O Again the opponent seems to get the upper hand - Musashimaru drives Takanonami backwards, but somehow Nami resists at the edge and launches a defensive throw attempt, forcing Musashimaru to step out. Not exactly what I would call a classic bout, but surely a Takanonamiesque way of winning. (Shaking head...)

Day 9 against Musoyama:
http://www.banzuke.c...kanami_musoy.rm
Musoyama in good form charges forward. It looks like Takanonami tries to get right overarm grip first, and when that fails he quickly switches to left arm instead, gets the desired grip and launches a strong kotenage. All this happens very fast with Nami going backwards. Against a different (smaller) opponent, he would probably have gone for kime grip - both arms.

Day 14 against Aminishiki:
http://www.banzuke.c...kanami_amini.rm
Who said that Takanonami never slaps his opponents? Sure he does, but he doesn't indulge in tsuppari-orgies like once Terao. :-) When Takanonami slaps his opponent he doesn't overdo it. Just one slap with the right fist at the tachiai, to disturb the opponent and get him off balance.
Once again, Nami looks to be on the defence, but looks are deceiving. You can see how he goes for kime-hold but is quite happy to settle for right-arm kotenage in the end.

Judging from these bouts, the Takanonami Way is to let the opponent think that he has the upper hand. In other words, if the opponent wants morozashi he can have it! It just gives Nami the opportunity to exert his deadly grip where he clamps both arms from above. Kimedashi and kotenage are Takanonami's bread and butter. His yorikiri is often the result of a kime-hold. He also wins several bouts with uwatenage and shitatenage, but I have the impression that those techniques are not only used as offence, but are just as much defence techniques to Takanonami.

From Mikko's Sumo Pages (maintained by a certain forum member of some prominence) I have learned that Takanonami also has several other tricks up his sleeve, or at least used to have. It's been a while since we saw a kawazugake from Takanonami.

Edited by Kashunowaka, 30 April 2004 - 19:53.


#8 hoshidango

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Posted 26 April 2004 - 07:31

Judging from these bouts, the Takanonami Way is to let the opponent think that he has the upper hand. In other words, if the opponent wants morozashi he can have it! It just gives Nami the opportunity to exert his deadly grip where he clamps both arms from above. Kimedashi and kotenage are Takanonami's bread and butter. His yorikiri is often the result of a kime-hold. He also wins several bouts with uwatenage and shitatenage, but I have the impression that those techniques are not only used as offence, but are just as much defence techniques to Takanonami.

Yes it does makes sense doesn't it?

#9 Kashunowaka

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Posted 27 April 2004 - 23:36

That's it? Nothing more to be said about Takanonami? 18 replies on Kobo, only 7 so far on former ozeki and two-time yusho-winner Takanonami? :-)

Perhaps moving to a separate subforum was a bad idea after all. In any event, pinning the topic is totally pointless in a subforum where regular members cannot create new topics.

#10 hoshidango

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 03:03

I was feeling the same as I looked at the listing... So here you go one extra..

Edited by hoshidango, 28 April 2004 - 03:04.


#11 Zentoryu

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 16:13

Another reason could be that there isn't much else to say about Takanonami.

Don't get me wrong, I don't disrespect him or his accomplishments.

But what's been posted above pretty much sums it up.

Nami's been around forever and most of the veterans of this forum, and of sumo in general, know as much as there is to know about him. Which is probably a good reason for the lack of posts to this thread, at least by forum vets.

Plus its basho time, a time when things like this get put on the back burner. :-D

Of course, now that I've said this, it will probably spark a million posts about him. (Applauding...)

Edited by Zentoryu, 28 April 2004 - 17:03.

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#12 tominishiki

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 16:38

I know one thing about Nami: His first bout that I watched was his kinoboshi against Musashimaru at Aki 2002 when Takanohana did his comeback and that was the first kionoboshi I saw
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#13 Asashosakari

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 17:33

Nami's been around forever and most of the veterans of this forum, and of sumo in general, know as much as there is to know about him. Which is probably a good reason for the lack of posts to this thread, at least by forum vets.

I must admit, that pretty much echoes my thoughts. (Applauding...) There just doesn't seem too much to talk about Takanonami after he has been around for sooo long, and I'm saying that as one who voted for him in that "who's your most favorite rikishi ever?" poll a few months ago. And beyond that, the voting that gave us this thread sort of smacked of "quick, let's talk about the guy before he goes intai", which didn't really seem like a winning strategy to get people talking about somebody...

So veteran posters/fans don't have the urge to talk about him, and newer fans haven't exactly flooded the thread with requests for Nami information either, so nobody knows what exactly to post about, I guess.

I dare say the Toki thread worked because he's a cult favorite, and the Kobo thread did because he's so invisible to most fans, and putting him front and center made people realize just how little they knew about him. Neither reasoning really applies for a Nami thread...

Edited by Asashosakari, 28 April 2004 - 17:37.


#14 Kaikitsune Makoto

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 17:47

Some general Nami-stuff with some repetitions to the excellent posts by
others in this thread already!

Born in 27th October 1971 which makes him 32 years old. Aomori-based and
has a nickname Nyonami. He is the tallest makuuchi rikishi with 196cm
height. Weight has varied between 160 and 170kg for years. He likes
whiskey, has cheerful character, has a small wife with whom he dated for
years and years before getting married.

He made his debut in 1987 a bit less than a year before Takanohana and
Wakanohana. There is a record of the first ever training session where
both Hanada-bros were officially professional sumotori.
http://www.accesscom...katakaday1.html
Takanonami went 12-22 in keiko against them beating Wakanohana 9 times in
17 bouts and losing 14 times to Takanohana managing only 2 wins.
Wakanohana on the other hand dominated his younger brother with 14-8
record.

Nami made his juryo debut in Haru 1991 showing already the well-known
style of his. 9-6 at J13 was followed by 8-7 at J7 in Natsu. Then a little
make-koshi in Nagoya but strong 12-3 in Aki (lost to Daizen in kettei-sen
for juryo yusho) and promotion to makuuchi. He never looked back again to
juryo. In Makuuchi he spent about 1.5 years to get accustomed to high
maegashira position. In Haru 1993 he was able to achieve 9-6 at M1 and
from them on he was sanyaku rikishi until his demotion to maegashira in
Hatsu 2001. Nami didn't waste much time to gain ozeki promotion. In Natsu
1993 he was shin-komusubi and celebrated his ozeki promotion already
after 13-2 jun-yusho in Hatsu 1994 where he showed a lot of his technical
repertoire. Beat Akebono with classic kawazugake, had 3 uwatenage, 2
kotenage, 1 kubinage, kimedashi, sotogake, oshitaoshi, hatakikomi and only
2 yorikiri.

His ozeki career was a bit wavy. He started it with a shitatenage loss to
Terao though but then won 12 of his next 14 bouts. In kettei-sen he was
slaughtered by Akebono's tsukitaoshi. Whole 1994 was very good for Nami.
His record was 70-20. His biggest nemesis of the year to him was
Musashimaru who beat Nami 5 times. Also Akebono, Kaio and Terao had 2 or
more wins against him. 1995 was much worse and he was mostly struggling to
get 8 or 9 wins per basho. He even had his first ever make-koshi as
sanyaku rikishi in Natsu where he went 6-9. Then he obviously got back
into shape and started 1996 with the aforementioned 14-1 yusho after
kettei-sen win over Takanohana. Whole 1996 was successuful and mostly 12-3
level bashos for him. In Kyushu basho he was in 5-man play-off but lost to
Maru. 69-21 in 1996. He suffered his second ozeki make-koshi at the start
of 1997 but then revitalized himself and had another good year at ozeki
highlighting in his Kyushu 1997 yusho after another kettei-sen against
Takanohana.

Downhill started in 1998. Some good basho but the peak had already gone.
Ankle problems piled up and with an exception of one resurgence in Haru
1999 (12-3) he went to a chronic survival battle against demotion from
ozeki. He lost the battle in Kyushu 1999 and although he racked up
necessary 10 wins in Hatsu to regain his ozeki rank, he was dommed and
ever since Haru 2000 he has had 7 kachi koshi basho and 18 make-koshi
basho. At M13w he is almost certainly at the very last bashos in his
career.

Takanonami is quite unique rikishi when it comes to style. There is a holy
triplet in his sumo that all rikishi know and are afraid of. Even
morozashi man Asashoryu admitted that he doesn't like locking in with Nami
even with morozashi because Nami has that strong response with kime-tsuri
and general kime-yori hassle.

Kime-hold is really essential to Nami. Always was. There are probably over
200 makuuchi wins he has gotten with simply employing his kime-hold. I
have no doubt he is a rikishi against other rikishi have lost most often
despite having morozashi. When he gets his standard two-handed kime, he
squuzes and uses his height and great strength to really lift his foe up
or at least onto his toes and then escort him out or carry him out. If his
foe had only one hand inside, then Nami often deployed kotenage tactics!
He was fluent in kotenage to both sides and leads makuuchi kotenage
frequency with a clear margin. He has 65 kotenage wins in makuuchi, 38
wins with kimedashi and countless of wins with yorikiri after kime-hold
set-up.

He also has effective sotogake which is only natural as if you put your
foe on his toes, sotogake becomes quite valid option to proceed! So Nami
has used his towering sotogake very effectively in sumo 17 times in
makuuchi. But sotogake isn't Nami's speciality as such and there are many
others who do it more or equally often as Nami has done. Kawazugake on the
other hand has Nami's trademark all over it. He has won with kawazugake 6
times in makuuchi and everý time against strong foes. Twice against
Kotonowaka + once against Akebono, Takanohana, Tochiazuma and Miyabiyama.

That triplet kime - kote- soto was then completed by his good
hidari-yotsu and throws he could execute. One other defensive features of
his has been katasukashi.

His foes try to get hazu-oshi going against him. That way he can't get
kime and is forced into defensive. Depending on the condition of his
ankles in the last few years he has sometimes been quite helpless against
hazu-oshi but on good ankle-times he has persevared more. In morozashi
many skilled rikishi try to lift their elbows as high as possible in order
to make Nami's leverage feeble. Takamisakari and Tokitsuumi do this
against him for instance.

Akebono was Takanonami's most difficult foe. He managed to beat him only 5
times in their 40 meetings! 5-35 speaks for itself. Nami was an easy
target for Akebono's massive tsuki. Just like Nami was later very
vulnerable to Toki's tsuki.

Musashimaru was Nami's rival of some sort. He often said he considers Maru
his biggest rival although Maru didn't always think so himself. They had
record number of face to face bouts; 38-21 to Maru (streaky rivalry too,
Nami had 7 consecutive wins against Maru from Hatsu 1997 to Haru 1998).

He has had 1117 bouts in makuuchi so far. Out of these 1117, only 8 times
he has just bowed a free win when his foe has called it a tournament due
to "ouch". He has had many rematches too but I am unaware of the amount.
His winning percentage in makuuchi is about 58. Twice he has managed to
win yusho. As explained earlier his first yusho in Hatsu 1996 was a
subject to some critisism due to easier opposition than normally but his
kettei-sen kawazugake against Takanohana was one of the most memorable
kawazugakes in the history of mankind.

To me Nami was always the king of defense and when I think of kimedashi or
kawazugake, I think of Takanonami.
The Core of Sumou is a very good thing always no matter if sumou is rotten or not.

#15 aderechelsea

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 18:24

(Applauding...)

that was an impressive summary of Nami's career........

this is why we "younger fans" didn't post here.We haven't watched him at his peak and we certainly don't know that much about him.....

thanks a lot

(Sign of approval)

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Adopted rikishi: Sd95e Hokutoki 3-4  .... Sd88w Kaiho 4-3 

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#16 Kashunowaka

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Posted 28 April 2004 - 19:55

Thank you Kaikitsune! (Applauding...)

this is why we "younger fans" didn't post here.We haven't watched him at his peak and we certainly don't know that much about him.....

You shouldn't let that stop you!

To me Nami was always the king of defense and when I think of kimedashi or
kawazugake, I think of Takanonami.

I agree about that. On a more negative note, Takanonami's defensive style has brought him quite a lot of criticism. Quote from the SML, in addition to those already posted by Sekihiryu:

I think if Takanonami does not change his sumo style, he should be happy
with his current Ozeki position. His slump is based on his sumo style. The
way many oyakata, including Dewanoumi Rijicho, comment on his sumo style is
that since he is winning even with his terrible sumo style, he must be
enormously talented, or that must be good sumo style for him. Nobody said
it is a great sumo technique. His sumo style is something oyakata used to
tell younger rikishi not to immitate.

Sumo kyokai expect yokozuna to be a model for younger rikishi. Takanonami's
sumo style can't be a model for any other rikishi. That is one of the
reason why he was never mentioned as a yokozuna candidate even though he
has been winning 12 or so constantly. Everyone knows his style. While he is
not working on improving his sumo skill, other rikishi are studying his
style and start catching up with him. That is happening this basho, I
think.

The basho in question was Haru 1995. Takanonami ended with 9-6.

In later years, Takanonami has also earned him self nicknames such as "The Evil One" and "Matta King". I think these are related, and allude to his tendency to stall the tachiai until he gets it the way he wants it, thereby causing an extraordinary amount of matta. But I don't know for how long matta has been associated with Takanonami. Wasn't there a rule change regarding the tachiai a couple of years ago, or at least a stricter interpretation of the rules? I seem to recall that Takatoriki had difficulties adjusting to the new rules, and that his tachiai suffered because of that.

#17 hoshidango

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 01:54

Great one Kaikistune.

I kind of visualize Baruto or Kitaoji or both of them following his style of sumo...

As for himself I wonder what would happen to him next basho. I would say anywere between 5-10(and retirement) at worst and 10-5 best. No worse, no better.

#18 Kaikitsune Makoto

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 19:30

Nami's towering sotogake samples:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Nami's kotenage:

Posted Image

Nami beating KaioU:

Posted Image


Nami gives his reply to accusations of matta-evilness:

Posted Image

Nami's loss to Toki which guaranteed his ozeki demotion in Kyushu 1999:

Posted Image
The Core of Sumou is a very good thing always no matter if sumou is rotten or not.

#19 Tumppi

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 19:49

Great to choose Takanonami in Featured rikishi ™! Great post Kaikitsune! It's just sad to see Nami go.. (Applauding...)
ps I hate when veterans quit

Edited by Tumppi, 29 April 2004 - 19:49.

Aka Thomashimaru

#20 Sasanishiki

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 21:20

Would 'nami quit if he dropped to juryo? Could he make his way back from there? He might be losing his stuff, but he would probably have a lot more savvy than the up-and-comers and the other faded perennial escalator rikishi.

#21 Kashunowaka

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 21:24

Would 'nami quit if he dropped to juryo?

As a former ozeki, he is more or less expected to quit if he faces demotion to juryo.

#22 sekihiryu

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 21:56

Of course, now that I've said this, it will probably spark a million posts about him. (Applauding...)

(Pulling up a swede...) great foresight! you picked it like a swede!

Takanonami of late has a bad habit of starting a basho with roar, going 6-7 days with with only 1 loss then falling to pieces in the second half of the draw, I wonder does he himself doubt he can do it? does he get nervous? I wonder what he is thinking
Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is a loose mawashi! You know that don't you?
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#23 sekihiryu

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 22:00

I'll chuck in my salt later myself.

and that was a Mitoizumi special worth of salt too! superb. This forum will soon become the online Mecca for Sumo information! (Applauding...)
Private Pyle, if there is one thing in this world that I hate, it is a loose mawashi! You know that don't you?
Full Metal Jacket

#24 Asashosakari

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    Sumo is a very good thing. Though better with affordable video.

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Posted 29 April 2004 - 23:59

Takanonami of late has a bad habit of starting a basho with roar, going 6-7 days with with only 1 loss then falling to pieces in the second half of the draw, I wonder does he himself doubt he can do it? does he get nervous?

Are you sure you're thinking of Takanonami? (Applauding...) For the last year or so (except Hatsu 2004), his pattern has actually been pretty much the opposite...usually close to make-koshi by Day 10 (3-7 four times, 4-6 once), only to rally a bit during the final days and pick up some more wins, but still unable to avoid going MK eventually.

http://www.szumo.hu/...Takanonami.html

Edited by Asashosakari, 30 April 2004 - 00:00.


#25 Ryunokaze

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Posted 30 April 2004 - 14:49

Takanonami-A formless muscle-man whos power is fading.
Has had a good run.
These days is less exciting than a good henka.
JUST holding on for his new master-Takanohana Oyakata.

By the way,does anybody know if 'nonami has paid for his matta?If so,then how much?In my humble opinion,should have been a small furtune.A BMW a least, or a Louie Vitton bag.Whats going on there?

Edited by Ryunokaze, 30 April 2004 - 15:02.



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