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#76 Asashosakari

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:52

Of course you can already say "former Chiyohakuho" like former Kasuganishiki. Also, former whoever third rikishi.

Well, if this is finally the end of the road for Chiyohakuho: From various untimely injuries to all his scandal involvements, I'm not sure I recall another career that was a bigger comedy of errors.

At this point I'm half-expecting to find out he also inherited Chiyotenzan's air gun approach to tsukebito discipline before this is all said and done...

#77 shumitto

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 02:58

One of the main problem trying to understand yaocho in Ozumo is that Westerners equate "match-fixing" with gambling. The Italian soccer scandals were mentioned and they had to do with gambling.


Not really. There is match-fixing unnatched from gambling when the sole purpose is to make a team win trophies. Someone may gamble, though this is a side-effect and not the main purpose.

It wasn't until decades later when I happened upon Sumo Forum that I found a bunch of people who actually counted every single bout--sorting them, categorizing them, ranking rikishi using all sorts of convoluted statistics. They would even try to predict--no, calculate the banzuke position of rikishi for each basho.

All the fans that I knew over the years cared only about their own favorites. They would care where on the banzuke those guys would be but all the others . . . gimme a break!


That can be a difference between Japanese and foreign fans or between people who follow sumo more or less the same way and others who want to get the most out of it in some different way, looking from different angles, with statistical approaches to make it more fun. For instance, I know the starting line-up of my favorite baseball team and have an idea of who plays well, who doesn't and a couple of stats and it's enough for me, but some people know nearly every statistics from every player from the past two decades and want more.

Edited by shumitto, 03 February 2011 - 02:59.

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#78 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:11

Has match fixing at Jungyos ever been formally acknowledged? I seem to recall during the Israeli junket somebody asking Kintamayama what people would like to see, and he said something like "It'd cool if someone bust out an izori!" And in a freakish coincidence, someone bust out an izori (which was posted on YouTube for posterity)

#79 Asashosakari

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:12

Two of those who confessed are the previously known Chiyohakuho and the former Kasuganishiki. The third is another rikishi that hasn't been named, bringing the total number of rikishi currently under suspicion to 14.

Other articles are saying that the third to confess was Enatsukasa the go-between, but do also mention that a 14th guy has newly come under suspicion, though not through which source.

Edited by Asashosakari, 03 February 2011 - 03:17.


#80 madorosumaru

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 03:37

The average Japanese sumo fan being interviewed on the street by journalists with microphones is reacting just like "Westerners" who don't understand yaocho, and Kaio love, and sumo history.

That's not the "average sumo fan" being interviewed but "average man on the street" who couldn't care less about sumo. When I talk about the "Westerner," I am talking about gaijin fans, which I am one, who should know about sumo history and tradition if he or she cares about Ozumo.

Journalists hand pick interviews to make their points. One article had the reporter interviewing people in front of the KK, assuming they would tend to be knowledgeable. A 60-year-old taxi driver said, "There have been rumors for a long time. My reaction was 'So it was true after all.'" He was aware of the possibility but he didn't approve: "It's not something that should be forgiven."

An out-of-town businessman said, "I always thought yaocho existed, so this didn't particularly surprise me."

I would venture to say any Japanese who would consider himself a sumo fan would be aware of of fixed bouts. For example, there is a term used by sumo people and fans alike called "gachinko" ガチンコ which means "for real." There are a number of rikishi and certain heya that are known to be gachinko. Let me ask you, why is a term like that necessary unless the prevailing situation is not gachinko? If yaocho didn't exist or rarely took place, wouldn't it be much easier to name the isolated culprits as "yaocho rikishi" instead of selecting a few who do not do yaocho?

Any sumo fan worth his salt knows hana-zumo--exhibition sumo--including intai zumo, one-day tournaments, jungyo, koen, etc. are pre-arranged. I attended the LA Jungyo and one could easily tell the bouts were choreographed. A rikishi would get hoisted up and flutter his legs as he is tsuridashi'ed out amid roaring laughter by the crowd. Bart got flung off the dohyo and rolled down the hanamichi, also to the delight of the fans. That particular act was so popular that he repeated the exact same thing at a subsequent jungyo site. One can also bet one's house at any jungyo that the local rikishi would not lose in the first round. He may not win the whole thing but he will make a good show of it.

That's Kyokai-sanctioned yaocho. Rikishi learn how to do choreographed bouts through experience. It's part of what they do over the course of the year.

Edited by madorosumaru, 03 February 2011 - 03:41.

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#81 Kuroyama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 04:14

I attended the LA Jungyo and one could easily tell the bouts were choreographed.

Mostly they were, but I'd bet that at least one bout did not go as it was supposed to, when Kisenosato beat Hakuho on the second day. I was next to the hanamichi on Hakuho's side, and he looked REAL upset as he left the arena -- plus, I'd assume the script called for a showdown between the 2 yokozuna for the final.

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#82 madorosumaru

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 04:57

My intention was to show that the origin of modern sumo was "theater," not sport.

But the particular play you've claimed they were presenting never happened, which is kind of a major point... I think the iffy origins of sumo have been well-documented even on this forum that resorting to exaggerated tales isn't necessary.

You are right. I "mixed my metaphors." Kanban ozeki did not fight most of the time. They were there primarily for show--to participate in the dohyo-iri. The requirements were that they be big and fearsome looking. However, some rikishi like Tanikaze started as kanban ozeki, then went through normal promotion procedure to later become a legitimate ozeki and the first yokozuna.

But, there was a need for the kanban ozeki to exist to attract a crowd--like the bearded lady. Sumo was a show, a circus, a carnival freak show. It was not foremost a sporting contest.
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#83 Kotoviki

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 05:32

Indeed, after his loss at Nagoya 2009, Asa was not upset. He calmly told me he would win the next one, and he did. At the time I thought it an odd remark and wanted to mention it but then thought better of it while he was active. Now... I think it is OK to say.


No, it's the rikishi way. I've been around many of the boys, as I know you have, too, Harry, many times after their losses and they were never upset. Asa always said he would win the next one regardless of whether he won or lost the last. If I told the boys that they will win the next, they inevitably responded that they would, all very calmly, all very confidently. I'm not ruling anything out, but I doubt that any one of them saying they will win the next bout, yusho, whatever is anything but confidence in their own abilities or, just plain bravado. Just my opinion, knowing the man, Dagvadorj Dolgorsuren, for all these years.

Go ahead and take your shots now (not directed at you, Harry (Shaking head...) )


Actually Barbara, Harry has only been to one basho (Nagoya 2009 with me) and he only had a chance to be with me one night with the boys so he doesn't know what it is like on a regular basis!!

Harry, not trying to say anything bad against you my friend.. just that it was your only one experience!!!
As Barbara says if you're around every basho every year, so many boys you get used to this behaviour... all ranks the boys say just this "I will win the next one!"
And some are upset and some aren't!!!

#84 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 06:27

The fallout has begun. The 44th annual NHK Sumo Benefit show scheduled for the 11th has been cancelled (no enka-singing rikishi this year) And a meeting with all of the oyakata is about to begin.

#85 Kotoviki

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 06:32

The fallout has begun. The 44th annual NHK Sumo Benefit show scheduled for the 11th has been cancelled (no enka-singing rikishi this year) And a meeting with all of the oyakata is about to begin.


Just in time that I bought my tickets..... now to find out how to get a refund!!!!! Oh and cancel the hotel on 10th and 11th!

#86 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:05

As for whether or not NHK will televise the basho, they say "We are studying the matter" No word yet on what Kintamayama's word on the matter will be this time around.

#87 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:27

Has match fixing at Jungyos ever been formally acknowledged? I seem to recall during the Israeli junket somebody asking Kintamayama what people would like to see, and he said something like "It'd cool if someone bust out an izori!" And in a freakish coincidence, someone bust out an izori (which was posted on YouTube for posterity)

Not entirely accurate- I didn't really know what an izori was back then. I did film it, as I filmed the whole thing. I don't really think anyone thinks the jungyo bouts are for real, even in the sticks.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#88 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:30

As for whether or not NHK will televise the basho, they say "We are studying the matter" No word yet on what Kintamayama's word on the matter will be this time around.

This just in from Kintamayama- in his opinion, there will be no broadcast, not because he thinks this is the right thing to do but because NHK is a populist organization with PC issues. (Right before their own journalist tips off the heyas that the police are coming..).

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#89 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:36

Article

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

Download my sumo toolbar - http://dichne.ourtoolbar.com/
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#90 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:39

Fuji TV announced that the 35th Japan Ozumo Tournament, scheduled for the 6th, has also been cancelled.

#91 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:41

First mention of possible betting on rigged Sumo bouts in the papers-apparently one of the arrested gambling ex-sumo people is hinting that he was taking bets on sumo bouts as well. Well well.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#92 kame

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:51

Not surprised by any of this. I just hope the makuuchi portion of yaocho doesn't get this kind of proof/exposure or Sumo as we know it is done. Still waiting for the sex scandal, though!

#93 Chiyozakura

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 07:55

The Japan Times reports 2 stablemasters - one unnamed, and the other Takanawa (?????) They also said 11 wrestlers were identified in the messages: four in the elite makuuchi division, four in the second-tier juryo division and three in lower ranks.

Hasn't former Kasuganishiki just taken over the Takenawa name? Looks like his Oyakata career will be a short one. But seriously, this could be the biggest blow to sumo. I guess most of us suspected rikishi to share victories when some friends needed one (I give you the kachi koshi this time, and you help me next time), but now the whole thing sounds way bigger than I expected it to be. I still do not believe that as Peterao suggests the NSK scripts most of the bouts. If they did I doubt they would find it great to not have a Japanese Yusho winner during the last five years.

#94 Otokonoyama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:06

I take it the NSK lads are not out doing any PR at the setsubun events this year... (Shaking head...)

#95 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:22

Fallout-Nagatanien, the company responsible for 200 kenshos per basho, are looking to cancel them this basho. "We'll have to see how this pans out," said Naga Tanien the CEO.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

Download my sumo toolbar - http://dichne.ourtoolbar.com/
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#96 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:23

I take it the NSK lads are not out doing any PR at the setsubun events this year... (Shaking head...)

Yesterday's papers said Hakuhou will be in Yokohama beaning everyone.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

Download my sumo toolbar - http://dichne.ourtoolbar.com/
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#97 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:27

I take it the NSK lads are not out doing any PR at the setsubun events this year... (Shaking head...)

Actually, Baruto and others were throwing beans at Narita-san today as scheduled.

#98 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:34

Article with political smatterings

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

Download my sumo toolbar - http://dichne.ourtoolbar.com/
post-62-1171731969.gif


#99 Kintamayama

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:55

The Kyokai is asking all Juryo and higher rikishi to fill in an anket. OK, a questionnaire, pertaining to the latest developments. Nothing about the contents, but a questionnaire nonetheless.

What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic and a dyslexic?

A guy who is up all night arguing with himself over whether or not there is a dog.

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#100 Peterao

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Posted 03 February 2011 - 08:58

Hakuho throwing beans, but not throwing out any answers to questions

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