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#776 Asashosakari

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 12:29

So far I was under the impression that in some cases, the kyokai went by hearsay without having text messages, bank statements, etc which would prove involvement outside of human testimony. I also did not name Kasuganishiki specifically. There are 20ish rikishi dismissed. The ones against which there is no damning , non-testimonial evidence should not be dismissed imo, because human testimony alone tends to be unreliable.

As has been pointed out before, it's not "hearsay" if a person testifies about his own actions. Kasuganishiki and Chiyohakuho aren't testifying about things they're only third parties to, and while Enatsukasa can't testify as to whether yaocho actually took place on the dohyo, he can testify for which bouts he contacted both parties as yaocho-arranger (and received a positive response). Whether their testimony is trustworthy is a different matter, but the committee clearly thinks it is.

BTW, what exactly did you mean by "I also did not name Kasuganishiki specifically"? Considering your whole post was about rikishi who might have named names under alleged pressure, there really isn't a large selection of people you could have been talking about, since practically everyone outside the original three hasn't even admitted to their own involvement, let alone others'.

Edit: Sokokurai and Hoshikaze might well have been better off admitting to doing yaocho once or twice (they've only been sekitori for a year, it can't have been nearly as much as for the veterans) and taken the two-year suspension they likely would have received... Well, who knows, maybe the very fact that there can't be nearly as much evidence against them as against e.g. Asofuji or Toyozakura - possibly zero, if Kasuganishiki's testimony against them can be discredited - will actually give them a fighting chance in the court of law.

Edited by Asashosakari, 14 April 2011 - 12:42.


#777 sumofan

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 12:33

It's like a gang of bank robbers getting caught and all of them denying their participation except one guy who turns against them and reveals details that only an insider could have known.

Kasuganishiki - the Japanese Specs O'Keefe!

I'm perfectly happy to accept the findings of the investigators, even if the match-fixers themselves aren't. The suspension of basho cannot continue indefinitely, just to satisfy a minority.



This is more like a bank robbery, except it's not entirely clear who was a bank robber and who just happened to be around.
And rather than try to have a thorough investigation, everybody is declared a bankrobber because one of the bank robbers says they were.

You are basically arguing to throw the minority under the bus just because some people are impatient to have the next basho.

#778 sumofan

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 12:37

So far I was under the impression that in some cases, the kyokai went by hearsay without having text messages, bank statements, etc which would prove involvement outside of human testimony. I also did not name Kasuganishiki specifically. There are 20ish rikishi dismissed. The ones against which there is no damning , non-testimonial evidence should not be dismissed imo, because human testimony alone tends to be unreliable.

As has been pointed out before, it's not "hearsay" if a person testifies about his own actions. Kasuganishiki and Chiyohakuho aren't testifying about things they're only third parties to, and while Enatsukasa can't testify as to whether yaocho actually took place on the dohyo, he can testify for which bouts he contacted both parties as yaocho-arranger (and received a positive response). Whether their testimony is trustworthy is a different matter, but the committee clearly thinks it is.

BTW, what exactly did you mean by "I also did not name Kasuganishiki specifically"? Considering your whole post was about rikishi who might have named names under alleged pressure, there really isn't a large selection of people you could have been talking about, since practically everyone outside the original three hasn't said anything.


Ok different scenario: suppose you and I are in a bank. I pull out a gun and rob the place but the robbery fails and I get arrested.
I am a bank robber, thus not necessarily the most honest and believable man.
At some point in the past, you did something to annoy me. Perhaps I am just envious of your success, or you never returned my lawnmower, or whatever.
I tell them you were with me and we were going to split the money 50/50.

Should you go to jail, with nothing other than my words to determine your guilt?

#779 Kintamayama

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 12:50

Hoshikaze press conference:
Q: "What would you like to say?"
A: "I have not done yaocho. I'd like to prove it in a court of law."
Q: "Do you intend to take the severance money?'
A- his lawyer Mr. Kitamura: "We have no intention of taking the severance money. We will be asking for his usual salary for April and May."
Q: "Even though the trial can take a long time, do you intend to return to the dohyo?"
A: "I haven't done any yaocho, so I would really like to get back on the dohyo quickly.'
Q: "Chiyohakuhou's testimony that you did yaocho is what brought you down.."
A, the lawyer: "It has been known to happen that sometimes a person can be influenced by his superiors to say things that are not true. We have to examine that closely.."

Hoshikaze and lawyer Mr. Kitamura:
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#780 Asashosakari

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 13:00

Ok different scenario: suppose you and I are in a bank. I pull out a gun and rob the place but the robbery fails and I get arrested.
I am a bank robber, thus not necessarily the most honest and believable man.
At some point in the past, you did something to annoy me. Perhaps I am just envious of your success, or you never returned my lawnmower, or whatever.
I tell them you were with me and we were going to split the money 50/50.

Should you go to jail, with nothing other than my words to determine your guilt?

Which is why the committee has insisted on getting testimony against each implicated rikishi from at least two sources. Based on recent (partially contradicting) press reports it may be questionable that they have adhered to that standard for Hoshikaze and Sokokurai, but that's for the courts to untangle now.

#781 Jonosuke

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 15:56

Which is why the committee has insisted on getting testimony against each implicated rikishi from at least two sources. Based on recent (partially contradicting) press reports it may be questionable that they have adhered to that standard for Hoshikaze and Sokokurai, but that's for the courts to untangle now.

The committee had to go for at least two sources. because,
1. One of the primary sources kept changing his story, they could not go with his testimony alone
and more importantly,
2. They lacked any evidence of substance against most of rikishi other than the names spewed around by one particularly rikishi.

All rikishi had no representation on their behalf and as they were not told ahead of time what exactly they have been accused of, there was no way to put forth their argument. Most were simply told rather than asked as if the whole thing was already proven. The committee would never had given such treatment if these guys were yokzouna or ozeki, but as they simply considered them to be high enough in the public's eyes but as far as they were concerned, mostly small flies even if they were not guilty, part of collateral damage, a small price to pay to move on.

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#782 Zenjimoto

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:56

I am not so sure that their case in court will have much chance. Let's keep something in mind here: the Rikishi are employed by the Kyokai. I look at it in this way: if one is employed somewhere, there is always a chance their employment can be terminated, especially when there is evidence or even suspicion of fraudulent behavior. As an employee one can fight the dismissal, but ultimately unless there was some sort of discrimination involved I don't think there is all that much that can be done about it, unless there is a strong union structure in place... which in this case I don't think there is. If one was working in a company where a colleague was fired due to fraud, and that colleague named one as a co-conspirator, chances are excellent that one will get the boot as well. If you were running a company, would you keep someone on board after such serious allegations were made? And why would a colleague drag one into the mud at that point... there is nothing to gain from it - the only reason would be a personal enmity with the accused.
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#783 Yubinhaad

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:56


I'm perfectly happy to accept the findings of the investigators, even if the match-fixers themselves aren't. The suspension of basho cannot continue indefinitely, just to satisfy a minority.

You are basically arguing to throw the minority under the bus just because some people are impatient to have the next basho.

I wasn't referring to the minority of rikishi - they are already gone (thrown under the bus/to the lions/out the door - delete as applicable). And as I said, I'm prepared to accept the findings of the investigators and say that those rikishi brought it on themselves and deserve the punishment.

The minority I was referring to is a small but extremely vocal group of "fans" who want to conduct a witchhunt, and won't be satisfied until either the guilty rikishi are reinstated or half the banzuke is obliterated.

You are correct in that I am impatient to resume "normal service", as it were, and get back to the regular basho schedule - because I don't believe it does sumo any good for the actual sumo to be on an indefinite pause.

#784 shumitto

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 14:02

(...) there is nothing to gain from it - the only reason would be a personal enmity with the accused.


I see something to gain here, at least from a psychological point of view. The more people you drag to mud, the more this guilt is shared.... It should be relieving in some way...

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#785 Sashohitowa

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 20:06

(...) there is nothing to gain from it - the only reason would be a personal enmity with the accused.


I see something to gain here, at least from a psychological point of view. The more people you drag to mud, the more this guilt is shared.... It should be relieving in some way...



Or you fill yourself with more guilt by intentionally destroying the life of innocent people.

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#786 Peterao

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 23:43

(...) there is nothing to gain from it - the only reason would be a personal enmity with the accused.


I see something to gain here, at least from a psychological point of view. The more people you drag to mud, the more this guilt is shared.... It should be relieving in some way...



Or you fill yourself with more guilt by intentionally destroying the life of innocent people.

Unless you know for a fact that there are no innocent rikishi.

#787 Asashosakari

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 20:50

Since we haven't really summarized the oyakata job changes of the last couple of weeks yet...

First off, the rank demotions again:

Riji -> Yakuin Taigu (two classes*): Kitanoumi, Kokonoe
Riji -> Iin (three classes): Michinoku
Yakuin Taigu -> Iin (one class): Oshima, Hakkaku
Iin -> Shunin (one class): Oguruma, Magaki, Kiriyama, Arashio, Irumagawa, Isegahama, Hanakago, Kasugayama, Tatsunami, Kasugano
Iin -> Toshiyori (two classes): Onoe

* There seems to be some disagreement on how to count the oyakata classes; some press reports had riji->yakuin taigu as one step down and riji->iin as two, apparently ignoring the fuku-riji level because you can't be assigned to it, just voted in. It's further complicated by the fact that yakuin taigu and regular iin actually have the same base salary, so in a way it's the same demotion, just with different job responsibilities afterwards. In my counting I'm going off the simple logic that if it's a lesser job title, it's a demotion.

And from press reports:

Kise
Tokitsukaze
Sadogatake
(demoted to jun- toshiyori for three years)

There's no such job title as jun-toshiyori, actually, and no change is reflected on the Kyokai site, all three are still regular toshiyori. I assume it just means they're barred from promotion for those three years. (Isn't Tokitsukaze still serving out a five-year promotion stop for baseball gambling and his involvement in Kotomitsuki's attempt to get rid of his extorters, as well? Gonna be a long decade for him...)

Oh, and taking the elevator in the opposite direction: Onaruto (ex-Dejima), who has been promoted from iin-equivalent (special position for recently retired ex-ozeki and yokozuna) to regular iin.

---

I'll skip the details of "inside" job changes, unless somebody's really interested in the movements (if you're just looking for the new state, Tamanaogijima has you covered)...much of it seems to be for show anyway, such as Kitanoumi now being "deputy" director for Osaka basho, a position that didn't exist previously, likely meaning he does exactly the same things as before, just with somebody else holding the director title for outside appearances now. Kokonoe in the jungyo department has undergone a similar metamorphosis, except it's even more complicated there. A bunch of vice director posts haven't been refilled at all, likely also indicating that the former occupants are de facto still doing those jobs, just as regular department members. Anyway...

What may be of more interest are a couple of shimpan changes due to yaocho-affected oyakata being forced to move out as they no longer hold the required rank, namely: Hanakago, Kasugayama, Tatsunami and Kasugano. Newly in are Asahiyama, Takashima, Takadagawa and Onaruto (perhaps the reason for his getting promoted out of schedule).

Lastly, you may recall that the competition inspection committee was beefed up from 7 to 11 members, but that obscures just how many changes have taken place there:

Out - Michinoku (chairman), Hakkaku (vice chairman), Isegahama, Kise
Holdovers - Naruto, Dekiyama, Matsugane
New - Nishonoseki (chairman), Takasago, Iwatomo, Tateyama, Miyagino, Yamahibiki, Tatekawa, Furiwake

The latter two among the new ones are ex-Tosanoumi (Tatekawa) and ex-Musashimaru (Furiwake). No new vice chairman for now, though perhaps that will still change.

Edited by Asashosakari, 16 April 2011 - 20:50.


#788 Kintamayama

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:15

Ex-Kouryuu is planning to sue the Kyokai. He visited the offices at the KKan yesterday to wrap up his dealings with sumo. He has expressed his dissatisfaction of the fact that even though he maintains his innocence, he was pressured into handing in his retirement papers. He has met with a lawyer. "For now, everyone is acting all nice and obedient, but I think once the danpatsu is over, they will sue," he thought. He did not meet the rijicho. "If I see his face, I feel I'd want to punch him..," he said. On April first, he was told personally by the rijicho that if he doesn't retire on his own free will he will lose his retirement money. Then, Soukokurai and Hoshikaze did not send in their papers, yet were told they will receive their full retirement money. This really angered Kouryuu. On his way out, he was asked if he holds a drivers' license . "I have no such thing!" he answered indignantly, got in the car, and drove himself away...
And the entertainment never ends.

Edited by Kintamayama, 19 April 2011 - 07:17.

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#789 Peterao

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:36

On his way out, he was asked if he holds a drivers' license . "I have no such thing!" he answered indignantly, got in the car, and drove himself away...

Punishment for driving without a license in Japan includes 300000 yen fine, a one year prison sentence, and deportation.

#790 ilovesumo

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 19:18

On his way out, he was asked if he holds a drivers' license . "I have no such thing!" he answered indignantly, got in the car, and drove himself away...

Punishment for driving without a license in Japan includes 300000 yen fine, a one year prison sentence, and deportation.


Now I want the text of that law. Really, deportation? I smell irony, but we are talking about Japan, so....
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#791 Fujisan

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 19:51

Can we have the pre-intai names for the Oyakata's demoted please?

I know some(Kitanoumi+Kokonae obviously) but not many...

Edited by Fujisan, 19 April 2011 - 19:52.

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#792 Asashosakari

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 20:35

Can we have the pre-intai names for the Oyakata's demoted please?

Sure.

Riji -> Yakuin Taigu (two classes):
Kitanoumi
Kokonoe (Chiyonofuji)

Riji -> Iin (three classes):
Michinoku (Kirishima)

Yakuin Taigu -> Iin (one class):
Oshima (Asahikuni)
Hakkaku (Hokutoumi)

Iin -> Shunin (one class):
Oguruma (Kotokaze)
Magaki (Wakanohana II)
Kiriyama (Kurosegawa)
Arashio (Oyutaka)
Irumagawa (Tochitsukasa)
Isegahama (Asahifuji)
Hanakago (Daijuyama)
Kasugayama (Kasugafuji)
Tatsunami (Asahiyutaka)
Kasugano (Tochinowaka)

Iin -> Toshiyori (two classes):
Onoe (Hamanoshima)

Promotion stop:
Kise (Higonoumi)
Tokitsukaze (Tokitsuumi)
Sadogatake (Kotonowaka)



#793 James H

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 21:06

Seriously at risk of karma here but it's interesting to see Sakaigawa oyakata missing from that list of demotees (and by extension his rikishi missing from the list of yaochoers)

This means little if you subscribe to the hard-to-argue-with theory that small fry have been sacrificed to save Kaio more senior wrestlers.

But I hold onto the thought that Sakaigawa would cut off more than his wrestlers' chon-mage if he thought they were play-acting out in the middle.

#794 Peterao

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 21:13

On his way out, he was asked if he holds a drivers' license . "I have no such thing!" he answered indignantly, got in the car, and drove himself away...

Punishment for driving without a license in Japan includes 300000 yen fine, a one year prison sentence, and deportation.


Now I want the text of that law. Really, deportation? I smell irony, but we are talking about Japan, so....

http://www.pref.ibar...12demerits.html

Deportation is just the consequences of a foreigner getting a criminal record. But the US Embassy site info bears this out:
http://japan.usembas...tacs-drive.html

Persons found driving in Japan without a legal license are subject to fines, arrest and possible deportation.


Edited by Peterao, 19 April 2011 - 21:15.


#795 ilovesumo

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 10:05

Thanx Peterao.
Geeee....
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#796 Kintamayama

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 23:01

"I don't have any definite plans for the future, but I will go on a diet, aiming to reach 190 kilos. The only thing left for me to enjoy is eating, but.. My physical strength has gone and I'm just another fat guy now. My shisho (Onoe Oyakata, caught driving under the influence) was lucky they didn't close the heya as punishment. But I'm no longer a part of the heya, so.." said ex- Yamamotoyama at the Kyokai offices today when he came around to tie some loose ends. "I'll probably have my danpatsushiki soon.." he added.

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#797 Asashosakari

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Posted 20 April 2011 - 23:32

"I don't have any definite plans for the future, but I will go on a diet, aiming to reach 190 kilos. The only thing left for me to enjoy is eating, but.. My physical strength has gone and I'm just another fat guy now. My shisho (Onoe Oyakata, caught driving under the influence) was lucky they didn't close the heya as punishment. But I'm no longer a part of the heya, so.." said ex- Yamamotoyama at the Kyokai offices today when he came around to tie some loose ends. "I'll probably have my danpatsushiki soon.." he added.

Tough times for Motoyamamotoyama...

#798 Kuroyama

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 01:56

Tough times for Motoyamamotoyama...

You've just been waiting for a chance to use that, haven't you?

(In a state of confusion...)

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#799 Peterao

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 02:48

Tough times for Motoyamamotoyama...

You've just been waiting for a chance to use that, haven't you?

(In a state of confusion...)

He's actually Motoyamamotoyamayamamoto...

#800 Harry

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Posted 21 April 2011 - 03:32

I had hoped that it would be a while before we could say Motoyamamotoyama but sadly with his state of health I'm not sure he was ever going to return to sekitori status anyways.


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