Kyushu 2006 ISP banzuke Options

[Golynohana]

The new ISP banzuke can be found here:
Kyushu 2006 ISP banzuke

Because in this basho we have had only 14 bouts to pick, everyone has at
least 1 absent day.

The averages were very diverse in 3 divisions,
in makuchi the average was 7,8 wins,
in juryo 8,4 and in makushita 6,6

So i had to reduce all results in juryo by 1 win and also increase
all scores in makushita by 1 win.

in makuuchi kadoban Ozeki Ekigozan collected only 7 wins which
means demotion for him. So we have no Ozeki again,
and there were no candidates for promotion to Ozeki.

Speaking of Ozeki promotion chances, here is the required number
of wins for sanyaku rikishi to be considered for promotion
to Ozeki in Hatsu:
Ekigozan - 10 (real or banzuke) wins
Mikaazuma - 12 (banzuke) wins
Rannohana - 13 (banzuke) wins
Hakaso - 11 (banzuke) wins
Daninowaka - 14 (banzuke) wins

In aki basho all sanyaku rikishi, except Ekigozan, got KKs.
There were many players who deserved to be promoted to sanyaku,
but there were no demotions from sanyaku and
only two additional komusubi slots have been added for
both M1 players.

New players in makuuchi are Oshirokita, Fujisan and godaikonoryu
Welcome!

In juryo... nothing interesting happened ;)

In makushita ms1e Toschima was unlucky not to be promoted, but
there were no other demotion candidates from juryo.
There were also difficult areas in makushita (especially between
ms13 and ms19), where players were promoted not as high
as they normally would, and some players even stayed at their
old rank despite KK. There were also ,like always, some lucky promotion.

If you have and questions regarding this banzuke or if you spot any errors,
please let me know.

This post has been edited by Golynohana: Oct 1, 2006, 11:28

[Fujisan]

New players in makuuchi are Oshirokita, Fujisan and godaikonoryu
Welcome!

Cheers,its been a long time coming but I am pleased to have arrived and have no intention of leaving either.

[Jeronimozo]

If you have and questions regarding this banzuke or if you spot any errors,
please let me know.

With 8-6-1 in Juryo you can either jump from J14e to J12e and from J5w to J3e or crawl from J7w to J7e. Well, bad luck, I guess...

[Golynohana]

If you have and questions regarding this banzuke or if you spot any errors,
please let me know.

With 8-6-1 in Juryo you can either jump from J14e to J12e and from J5w to J3e or crawl from J7w to J7e. Well, bad luck, I guess...

It is bad luck indeed. It happens in real sumo as well. Like for example in banzuke for Kyushu basho 2002 Hamanishiki went from J7w to J7e with 8-7 record while Takekaze went from J12w to J10e with the same result.

J7e Hamagewonna couldn't be promoted higher, because other players deserved it more.
Golynohana had 2 wins more while being only 3 full ranks lower, wanizushi was kosho, and takami, Manatsumai and Kaishakunin couldn't be demoted lower with their results.

Those players at J3e and J12e were simply lucky because noone else deserved it more to take these spots
in the banzuke. They were just first in line to fill empty spots.

Of course i may be wrong and you could give me a better solution. It is not that this banzuke is 100% official

[Zeokage]

How were you treating 7-7-1 results considering there were only 14 bouts? 7-8?

[Golynohana]

yes

[wolfgangho]

hello!

i got 8-6-1 and went from

ms48e to
ms48e

how can this be???



wolfgangho

[Golynohana]

hello!

i got 8-6-1 and went from

ms48e to
ms48e

how can this be???



wolfgangho

yes...another difficult arena in the banzuke was ms44-ms48. Kosho players are unmovable and MK and kyujo players went down deeper then they normally wolud and also KK-players promotion were smaller (or there was no promotion like in your case) . This was because of many kosho players in this area. I treat them as unmovable and consistently leave them on the same position they had in the previous basho. Maybe I should treat kosho as '7-8' equivalent, like it is done in Sekitori-Toto or Sumo Game banzuke...
So if i did so, kosho KOTOCHANTA would move down and you would move up to ms47. BUT i would have to do this to every kosho player which basically means that I wolud have to redo the whole banzuke...

oh, and according to banzuke rules (correct me if I am wrong) a KK rikishi cannot be demoted, but it is ok to leave him on the same place. And normally i would place Jesinofuji higher than you, but I placed you higher, because I cannot demote a KK player.

I know my explanation probably won't satisfy you, but in every game and on every banzuke there are some lucky and some unlucky players. Hope you will have more luck in the next banzuke.

[Gernobono]

hello!

i got 8-6-1 and went from

ms48e to
ms48e

how can this be???



wolfgangho

I know my explanation probably won't satisfy you, but in every game and on every banzuke there are some lucky and some unlucky players. Hope you will have more luck in the next banzuke.

i know that it does not make sense to argue about banzuke, but as you answered to wolfgaho's complaint i will also jump on the waggon....i think that in the lower parts of the banzuke any kk should lead to a substantial gain.....and therefore it is total nonsense to demote a 6-8-1 ony 1 rank....this should lead to a drop of 4-6 ranks, methinks.....and demoting harsher than in makuuchi or juryo brings more space for kk-players on the back of the banzuke...

even on the nsk-banzuke there is much more movement on the end of the banzuke than there is further up....i perfectly know that there are winners and losers on any banzuke, but in my opinion the concept of yours is not suitable for the back of the banzuke....just ask one of the banzuke-gurus how many ranks a rikishi will win with a 10-5 (5-2) on the nsk banzuke from mid-makushita....im am sure the answer will not be " 5 ranks"

[Golynohana]

I use the same promotion/demotion rules in makushita as I use in Juryo and Makuuchi, but it is due to the fact, that results in makushita are 15-days results, like in makuuchi and juryo.

In order to make the banzuke movement in makushita like it is in the real makushita division I could convert results in makushita to 7-days results , for example 8-7 and 9-6 results mean 4-3 whereas 6-9 and 7-8 results mean 3-4. But this would be a bad idea because there would be no difference for banzuke between getting 8 and 9 wins, but there would be a difference between getting 9 and 10. This would be not fair.

So I may leave like it is and simply promote and demote players based on different rules than in makuuchi/juryo. But then can someone tell me how far should I promote a 8-7 result, how far 9-6, on so on?

This post has been edited by Golynohana: Oct 5, 2006, 08:53

[Ganzohnesushi]

Wow! My original 8-6 was converted into a 9-5-1 which pushed me forward from ms26e to ms25w. At this steady pace I will reach Sekitori ranks already in Haru 2015.... And with a little luck I will finally arrive in Makuuchi in Kyushu 2019.... Great perspectve...

But to be seriously, I fully agree to Gernobono that KK's and MK's in Makushita should result in a little bit more movement, otherwise new joinees will never have a chance to reach Makkuuchi before they are old and grey....

Ganzohnesushi (having already a few grey hairs)

[Jejima]

My guidelines for Bench Sumo (which are a little different to my two colleagues - hence the Bench banzukes don't follow this exactly, as we need to always find a compromise), are thus....

For Makunouchi and Juryo, the usual. 8-7 = 1 place up, 9-6 = 3 places, 10-5 = 5 etc, with the reverse for MKs.

We usually make sure that you move at *least* that number of places, with preference being shown to KK rikishi over MK rikishi - which means that the Bench Banzuke is more 'dynamic' than the Ozumo one.

For the lower divisions, I work on the basis that demotions are still the same as for the top two divisions, but for promotions, I use the following guidelines...

8-7 = 2 places
9-6 = 5 places
10-5 = 8 places
11-4 = 11 places
12-3 = 14 places
13-2 = 17 places
14-1 = 21 places
15-0 (if it ever happens!) = 25 places

Again, KK rikishi getting preference over MK rikishi.

Due to the number of intais, and 0-0-15 players which exist mainly in the lower divisions, we are able to be generous with the promotions, whilst still keeping the demotions not too demotivating.

In the case above, if it had been for Bench Sumo, we would have found a way to promote wolfgangho, probably at a cost of those with 0-0-15 a bit higher up being demoted a little more.

I am not trying to tell you how to do your job, just letting you know a bit about how we do it for Bench Sumo

[Golynohana]

Hey, thanks Jejima for the guidlines! When I look at my banzuke I must confess, that it isn't very dynamic and it can be in fact pretty demotivating.
I think it is not to late yet to correct my makushita division. I will try to use your guidlines. So I announce the MAKUSHITA part of the isp banzuke as ***HIGHLY UNOFFICIAL***
I'll try to post the corrected version after this weekend.

[Asashosakari]

FWIW, Zenjimoto treats a one-win differential as equivalent to four ranks in Makushita in his banzukes, except at the very top of the division where things are more scrunched up (like in real sumo). Having worked on the Sekitoto banzuke the other day (and recreated a couple of others previously for fun), I've found that that works pretty well to create some dynamism in the rankings.

Personally, the least dynamic lower division banzuke making I've ever seen is what is sometimes done in Cibersumo (they seem to have two different banzuke-makers, one who knows what he's doing and one who doesn't).

[Kintamayama]

Personally, the least dynamic lower division banzuke making I've ever seen is what is sometimes done in Cibersumo.

Not to mention Sumo Game..

[Gernobono]

Personally, the least dynamic lower division banzuke making I've ever seen is what is sometimes done in Cibersumo.

Not to mention Sumo Game..

agreeeeeeeeeeeee.....

[Gusoyama]

I feel your pain, Goly. I get lots of flak for my banzuke, for the opposite reason. Mine's too dynamic. Though lately, I think I've started to be better, my equations seem to be balancing out, and I've been erring on the side of generosity. Still, you can't please all the people all the time, so don't agonize over it too much.

[Asashosakari]

BTW, I think the Makushita banzuke looks "worse" in part because you added one win to every player's result. Excluding all 0-0-15 players (not just the ones who fell off the banzuke), the average number of wins in the division is 7.49, or right down the middle, so there doesn't really seem to be a need for adjusting the scores. I think the banzuke will become a lot more dynamic if you keep the eighteen 7-win players as make-koshi.

This post has been edited by Asashosakari: Oct 5, 2006, 23:24

[Golynohana]

banzuke corrected.

[Golynohana]

BTW, I think the Makushita banzuke looks "worse" in part because you added one win to every player's result. Excluding all 0-0-15 players (not just the ones who fell off the banzuke), the average number of wins in the division is 7.49, or right down the middle, so there doesn't really seem to be a need for adjusting the scores. I think the banzuke will become a lot more dynamic if you keep the eighteen 7-win players as make-koshi.

I treat kyujo players the same as players with 0 wins, so they are included when I calculate average number of wins in a division. I exclude only players who fall off the banzuke. And the average was 6,6 wins, so I decided to add 1 win. Maybe if I didn't do it the new banzuke would look better, but well... I think the corrected banzuke looks better now.

[Asashosakari]

I treat kyujo players the same as players with 0 wins, so they are included when I calculate average number of wins in a division. I exclude only players who fall off the banzuke. And the average was 6,6 wins, so I decided to add 1 win.

I see the logic, it's just that (by their very nature) most Makushita 0-0-15 will end up toward the bottom of the division, so they don't really affect much of the banzuke making, and the "effective" win average for most parts of the division is higher than 6.6 wins. Besides, I think the main goal of adjusting wins should be to get a good split of kachi-koshi and make-koshi, not necessarily to get close to 7.5 wins...excluding all kosho and 0-0-15 players, there were already 42 KK and 39 MK in Makushita without adjusting the records. After your adjustment it was 60 KK and just 21 MK, and even including the 0-0-15 players, it's 60/32.

Ultimately, you're just making things needlessly difficult for yourself with such a split. It's very easy to compensate for having too many MK (you can just hand out higher promotions than usual and be lenient to the make-koshi players), but having too many KK tends to make banzuke-making very difficult because you end up having too many candidates for the same spots all the time, with kosho players making it even worse. And then you get players knocking down your door because they didn't rise as much as they expected.

This post has been edited by Asashosakari: Oct 8, 2006, 18:11